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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 12/31/2009 11:20:58 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
"Arabs were in and around that region long before 1948, what on earth would that have to do with anything?"
Please read this post to understand the context in which I was using the verse:
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=4687603
I was using the reference to indicate that the word "flood" is used as a metaphor for Israel's enemies, as seen here:
"The picture here is of an irresistible wave of people coming at Israel, one that only God's intervention could defeat..."
I was using the verse to make a point about a word, and referenced it later to indicate what a "flood" of enemies Israel faces in these latter days.
I know my posts are long and I'm not nearly as smart as some of you, but please try to wade through them as best you can before condemning me. :)
Thanks...
I copied this from that thread.
(("Then a war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels had to fight a war with the serpent. The serpent and its angels fought. But it was not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The huge serpent was thrown down. That ancient snake, named Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, was thrown down to earth. Its angels were thrown down with it."
Satan cast out of heaven where he has stood as a accuser of the Lord's people, even until now.
"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, power, kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah have come. The one accusing our brothers and sisters, the one accusing them day and night in the presence of our God, has been thrown out. They won the victory over him because of the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life so much that they refused to give it up. Be glad for this reason, heavens and those who live in them.
"How horrible it is for the earth and the sea because the Devil has come down to them with fierce anger, knowing that he has little time left.”
"When the serpent saw that it had been thrown down to earth, it persecuted the woman who had given birth to the boy. The woman was given the two wings of the large eagle in order to fly away from the snake to her place in the wilderness, where she could be taken care of for a time, times, and half a time."
A depiction of Israel's coming persecution.
"The snake's mouth poured out a river of water behind the woman in order to sweep her away."
"River of water" (or "flood" as other translations read), is a metaphor for Israel's enemies, and it's used to depict massive numbers of them, as seen in this:
"So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him."
Isaiah 59:19 (KJV)
The picture here is of an irresistible wave of people coming at Israel, one that only God's intervention could defeat, as seen in the next verse:
"The earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river which had poured out of the serpent's mouth. The serpent became angry with the woman. So it went away to fight with her other children, the ones who keep God's commands and hold on to the testimony of Jesus."
Frustrated in his attempts to persecute the woman, Satan hurls himself at the church, both gentiles and Jews.
Rev 12:1-17 (GW) ))
The 144,000 are said to be exempt from anything the 5th trump brings, that would seem to also apply to the 2nd woe also. Both of those woes take place in the 42 months the Beast from the Pit is given, that is also the time that the 'woman' is protected. That would be 144,000 from the 12 Tribes and 1/3 of the Gentiles that Christ brings through the fire at His return. If the woman is those protected then the only ones left for the Beast to make war against are the two witnesses. The only question that it brings up is 'can two people be called a remnant? If you want to include the ones not protected by being from the 12 Tribes then that war results in those being sought are also killed. They become part of the resurrected on the day Christ returns.
Re:12:17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re:11:7:
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them,
and kill them.
In this case the man involved is the False Prophet, he takes over 3 of the 10 kingdoms the Beast originally hands out. The Beast from the Pit is a fallen angel from pre-flood times.
((Want to know something interesting about all of this in light of today's events?
There are roughly 195 nations in the world today (192 of them in the U.N.) 57 of these are Islamic and remain at war with Israel. That means fully 1/3 of the nations on Earth are at war with Israel right now; nations who do not recognize Israel's right to exist. These nations are governed by a pagan religious system (Islam, represented by the star and crescent moon), and many of these nations exist within the boundaries of the former Persian and Seleucid Empires, the latter of which gave rise to the first Anti-Christ, Antiochus Epiphanes.
I leave you with this:
"Another sign appeared in the sky: a huge fiery red serpent with seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky and threw them down to earth."
The stars in this passage are fallen angels who govern the affairs of men from the heavens (sky).
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Eph 6:12 (KJV)
Now, not to be too far out there, but isn't it a remarkable coincidence that a third of the angels rebelled with Satan, only to become the governing powers of the affairs of men on earth, and that now, a third of the nations on earth bow to a pagan god and vow to destroy Israel?
Coincidence? Just asking. ))
You are trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Those you claim to be at war are questioning the legality of the UN to be able to annex land when it goes against the wishes of the people who live there. Add to that most of the rights granted the Arabs who lived there have been ignored from day 1. Is that how God's people act towards their neighbors??
It is not 1/3 of the Nations that gather to fight against Christ it is armies from every Nation. Islam believes in the same God as Christians and the same God as Israel worships.
To make your theory possible you seem to have had to ignore some of those time-lines given.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/1/2010 12:27:50 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Leonelrb.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leonelrb
Hello Retrobyter,
quote:
(Oh, and we WILL be getting back our physical bodies--"spiritual" bodies does NOT mean that they are immaterial but that they are SUPER bodies!)
Thank you very much for that great explanation. I am still struggling with the quote above. Are you saying that this physical body will be similar to the body Adam and Eve had before they sinned, or will this be a superior body? Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again?
I believe that Adam and Chavah (Eve) had better bodies than we have today, but Adam's body was inferior to the body of the "Second Adam" after Yeshua`s resurrection, according to I Cor. 15:44-49.
Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again? Frankly, I don't know. I know that we will "neither marry nor be given in marriage," according to Yeshua`, but whether that includes reproduction or not, I don't know. I rather believe that it does, but there's no proof that I know of. So, my gut reaction is to say, no, they will not reproduce, but don't take my word on it.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
The ones alive for the 1,000 years are the first to receive immortal bodies, if they are not married they will not be having children. If their population remains static then the way they 'parent' would be to the children that are born to the ones who live outside the Holy City in the New Earth. The children being born would be like grandchildren are to us.
These topics keep going back to if the 70 weeks have been fulfilled or not. I'm not if that point can be argued in any other thread?
Yes, and that is the distant link and why this discussion ended up in this thread. I am NOT of the opinion that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. I believe that there are 3.5 weeks left (not 7). So, I am not a pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, or prewrath, nor am I a full preterist. However, I completely believe in a millennium--not to describe the length of the Messiah's Kingdom, but to describe the length of time haSatan is incarcerated in the bottomless pit.
ON THE OTHER HAND, when one harmonizes II Peter 3:3-13, I Corinthians 15:20-28, and Revelation 20:1-15, then one finds that the Messiah reigns during the Millennium until He has subdued all of His enemies, the last enemy being Death, and then He turns over the Empire to His Father God while He remains the King of Isra'el. Furthermore, we have some SIGNIFICANT things that are said to be "forever" and are thus part of the New Earth with its New Sky and the New Jerusalem its capital city.
Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV
Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV
Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV
Isa 66:20-24
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV
Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/1/2010 8:12:49 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Islam believes in the same God as Christians and the same God as Israel worships.
Unequivocally untrue, and can be proven from the Koran itself.
However, perhaps that discussion is better left for anther thread given the Mod's recent warning.
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/1/2010 9:49:26 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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Addressed your assertion of Allah being the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims here:
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=4689414
as it was most appropriate given the mod's warning of keeping this thread "on topic."
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/1/2010 10:16:25 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
ON THE OTHER HAND, when one harmonizes II Peter 3:3-13, I Corinthians 15:20-28, and Revelation 20:1-15, then one finds that the Messiah reigns during the Millennium until He has subdued all of His enemies, the last enemy being Death, and then He turns over the Empire to His Father God while He remains the King of Isra'el. Furthermore, we have some SIGNIFICANT things that are said to be "forever" and are thus part of the New Earth with its New Sky and the New Jerusalem its capital city.
Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV
Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV
Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV
Isa 66:20-24
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV
Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
That having all enemies under foot is as tricky as that 1,000 years equals a day saying. Going over my other variations might help when I come back to this point.
Psalms is saying that the Throne Christ has on Earth for the 1,000 years lasts as long as the sun and moon last. A case can be made that when that Earth and that Heaven vanish just after Satan is sent to the Lake being the time being referenced. The Throne that is in New Jerusalem is a different throne as two rule from there. God and Christ both rule over those who were alive for the 1,000 years (as priests and kings) to those are called 'the rest' in Re:20. Only the Saints from the 1,000 years live inside the new city on a permanent basis. They do not feel heat or hunger etc. and they do the very same things that was going on in the Earthly Jerusalem that is on earth for the 1,000 years. In the New Earth it could well be a permanent celebration that would equal the feast of the Tabernacles with the minor change that everybody that took part in the 1,000 years is now acting as hosts that stayed in Jerusalem on a full time basis. The 24 Elders is an example of ones that would stay in the Earthly Jerusalem that starts off in ruins but is called the glorious city when Satan is released.
Eccl 1:4 should be referencing the new earth specifically just due to the words in your next reference, one earth is gone and forgotten, only the New Earth was ever destined to be eternal. In the New Earth the ones that can have children would be the ones who live in the New Earth that is outside of the New City (Holy Mountain). Life for them would go something like this (once the New City has descended) A birth happens, the new-born is called an infant until the age of 20, at that age he is called a child and he/she can get married and have children for the next 100 years. At the age of 120 years that child is said to die, instead of being a child he/she is now called an 'old-man' and judgment comes from the throne as to whether they are a sinner or not. When found to not be a sinner they are given immortal life and they become the same as the ones who live in the city. That is how I account for a static population for some that still allows for an eternal growth of the human race over the time-period called eternity.
Isaiah 66:22 is only referencing the New Earth as a measuring stick for the length of time being mentioned, vs:21 & 23 are both about the 1,000 year reign.
Back to the start of your post. Again not a real straight forward concept but it is consistent with the verses I think of. To redefine it slightly it is God who rules until all 'enemies' have been put under Christ's (feet/footstool). Back at the cross sin was defeated, that was defined as the moment Jesus died on the cross. The sin that was defeated was the original sin, every man born must die. Resurrection from the grave to eternal life was how sin was defeated. At some point in the future when Christ returns sin is removed from many people, the dead and the living. At this time sin is also taken out of the world, no sin is ever committed by man ever again. Death is said to be defeated because there are some alive who were dead and in the grave. Just like some time passed between the cross and the last sin there is a time gap (1,000 yrs) between death being defeated (resurrection of 1st people) and when the last are resurrected (Great White Throne of the end of Re:20). Death and Hell have to be empty when they are tossed into the lake.
M't:22:44:
The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
I take the above verse to mean God controls things until the 7th trump, Christ is then given authority to cleanse the earth. His first act is to resurrect the two witnesses, then the destruction of the wicked happens. It stops when Christ has Satan in chains and the Beast and the False Prophet are in the lake and the sinners are in the graves or in Hell. The verse below is about the 1,000 year reign where Christ alone rules the Earth from Earth. All the living people are presented to God as being Saints and an eternal era of being ruled over by God and the Lamb begins.
1Co:15:28:
And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.
Later.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/1/2010 10:15:11 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shabbat shalom, Wayne.
My friend, stop listening to the rhetoric of your theological position and listen to the Scriptures!
Don't you see? Let's start here:
Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV
Are you so sure that "forever" and "for ever" don't really mean "forever?" The sun and the moon will last FOREVER! And, by comparison, David's seed shall also endure FOREVER!
Some Christians are convinced that the sun and the moon will be gone when the New Earth and its New Sky are re-created, but they base that on the simple fact that the CITY has no need for the sun or the moon!
Rev 21:22-26
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
KJV
Rev 22:5
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV
One should notice, however, that the Scriptures do NOT say that the New Earth doesn't need the sun or the moon! To the contrary, look at this beautiful verse:
Isa 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
KJV
Here's the Hebrew:
23 V-chaafraah halvaanaah uwvowshaah hachamaah kiy maalakh YHVH Ts-vaa’owt b-har Tsiyown uwviYruwshaalaim v-neged z-qeenaayv kaavowd:
PC Study Bible's Interlinear Bible
23 V-chaafraah = And-shall-be-mixed-up
halvaanaah = the-moon
uwvowshaah = and-shall-be-outdone
hachamaah = the-sun
kiy = when
maalakh = shall-reign
YHVH = [the] LORD
Ts-vaa’owt = of-Hosts
b-har = in-Mount
Tsiyown = Zion
uwviYruwshaalaim = and-in-Jerusalem
v-neged = and-before
z-qeenaayv = His-ancients
kaavowd: = brightly:
23 And the moon shall be mixed up and the sun shall be outdone when the LORD of Hosts shall reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His ancients brightly.
Picture it: The New Jerusalem has landed on the New Earth and is wading in the New Atmosphere (because it towers 3x to 5x the thickness of the Atmosphere). Now imagine that you are 3000 miles away from the New Jerusalem and the top of the New Jerusalem is shining on the horizon, the moon is high overhead, and the sun is on the western horizon. The light from the Son of Man is much brighter than the light of the sun on the opposite horizon! So, imagine what that does to the phases of the moon overhead!!
No, the sun and the moon last forever, but they are not necessary for light in the city proper, just for the rest of the New Earth.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/1/2010 10:40:41 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shabbat shalom, again, Wayne.
Regarding the following verses:
Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV
Allow me to prove to you that this is indeed talking about the New Earth and the New Atmosphere in the Eternal State and not about the 1000 years or the Millennium. It's really a very simple argument based on something I learned as a child.
My father was a Baptist preacher who loved to speak on eschatology. He also brought in speakers (missionaries, evangelists, and other preachers) to speak on eschatology, and then we'd have discussions about what we heard, whether we agreed with the sermon or not. Something that I found interesting was when my father pointed out that we could still cry and wail in distress throughout the Millennium and all the way until the Great White Throne Judgment. Tears were not wiped away until the Eternal State when the New Earth was re-created.
Rev 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV
Now just look at the passage above. Look at verses 17-19:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Sounds pretty conclusive to me. Now I feel I know you well enough that I'm sure you will scramble to provide some alternative view, but if you would just relax, sit back, and see the similarities, you might just realize that, yes, this passage is also talking about the New Earth and its New Atmosphere and the New Jerusalem as much as do the 21st and 22nd chapters of Revelation.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/2/2010 12:38:42 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, again, Wayne.
Regarding the following verses:
Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV
Allow me to prove to you that this is indeed talking about the New Earth and the New Atmosphere in the Eternal State and not about the 1000 years or the Millennium. It's really a very simple argument based on something I learned as a child.
My father was a Baptist preacher who loved to speak on eschatology. He also brought in speakers (missionaries, evangelists, and other preachers) to speak on eschatology, and then we'd have discussions about what we heard, whether we agreed with the sermon or not. Something that I found interesting was when my father pointed out that we could still cry and wail in distress throughout the Millennium and all the way until the Great White Throne Judgment. Tears were not wiped away until the Eternal State when the New Earth was re-created.
Rev 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV
Now just look at the passage above. Look at verses 17-19:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Sounds pretty conclusive to me. Now I feel I know you well enough that I'm sure you will scramble to provide some alternative view, but if you would just relax, sit back, and see the similarities, you might just realize that, yes, this passage is also talking about the New Earth and its New Atmosphere and the New Jerusalem as much as do the 21st and 22nd chapters of Revelation.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Well Roy I agree with you. (no trap I promise) The only thing I would add is that previous verses have to do with Christ's return and the fate of the elect and the ones that die at His return
Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
The above conditions last for the hole 1,000 years and Satan's little season. Scene changes to the Great White Throne where the ones who were in tears are resurrected to life and it is those tears that God wipes away. Christ's servants have not had any sorrow for more than 1,000 years. Once those servants enter New Jerusalem they are home, they never leave the city and the City is complete when they enter. The building and such that is going on is outside the New City and it is the ones who had tears wiped away after Judgment Day that do the building and such.
Beasts of the field would not be allowed to enter New Jerusalem because they do not know about good and evil, to enter you have to be a truthful person (no liars)
Later.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/2/2010 2:02:00 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shabbat shalom, again, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy,
...
That having all enemies under foot is as tricky as that 1,000 years equals a day saying. Going over my other variations might help when I come back to this point.
Psalms is saying that the Throne Christ has on Earth for the 1,000 years lasts as long as the sun and moon last. A case can be made that when that Earth and that Heaven vanish just after Satan is sent to the Lake being the time being referenced. The Throne that is in New Jerusalem is a different throne as two rule from there. God and Christ both rule over those who were alive for the 1,000 years (as priests and kings) to those are called 'the rest' in Re:20. Only the Saints from the 1,000 years live inside the new city on a permanent basis. They do not feel heat or hunger etc. and they do the very same things that was going on in the Earthly Jerusalem that is on earth for the 1,000 years. In the New Earth it could well be a permanent celebration that would equal the feast of the Tabernacles with the minor change that everybody that took part in the 1,000 years is now acting as hosts that stayed in Jerusalem on a full time basis. The 24 Elders is an example of ones that would stay in the Earthly Jerusalem that starts off in ruins but is called the glorious city when Satan is released.
Eccl 1:4 should be referencing the new earth specifically just due to the words in your next reference, one earth is gone and forgotten, only the New Earth was ever destined to be eternal. In the New Earth the ones that can have children would be the ones who live in the New Earth that is outside of the New City (Holy Mountain). Life for them would go something like this (once the New City has descended) A birth happens, the new-born is called an infant until the age of 20, at that age he is called a child and he/she can get married and have children for the next 100 years. At the age of 120 years that child is said to die, instead of being a child he/she is now called an 'old-man' and judgment comes from the throne as to whether they are a sinner or not. When found to not be a sinner they are given immortal life and they become the same as the ones who live in the city. That is how I account for a static population for some that still allows for an eternal growth of the human race over the time-period called eternity.
Isaiah 66:22 is only referencing the New Earth as a measuring stick for the length of time being mentioned, vs:21 & 23 are both about the 1,000 year reign.
Back to the start of your post. Again not a real straight forward concept but it is consistent with the verses I think of. To redefine it slightly it is God who rules until all 'enemies' have been put under Christ's (feet/footstool). Back at the cross sin was defeated, that was defined as the moment Jesus died on the cross. The sin that was defeated was the original sin, every man born must die. Resurrection from the grave to eternal life was how sin was defeated. At some point in the future when Christ returns sin is removed from many people, the dead and the living. At this time sin is also taken out of the world, no sin is ever committed by man ever again. Death is said to be defeated because there are some alive who were dead and in the grave. Just like some time passed between the cross and the last sin there is a time gap (1,000 yrs) between death being defeated (resurrection of 1st people) and when the last are resurrected (Great White Throne of the end of Re:20). Death and Hell have to be empty when they are tossed into the lake.
M't:22:44:
The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
I take the above verse to mean God controls things until the 7th trump, Christ is then given authority to cleanse the earth. His first act is to resurrect the two witnesses, then the destruction of the wicked happens. It stops when Christ has Satan in chains and the Beast and the False Prophet are in the lake and the sinners are in the graves or in Hell. The verse below is about the 1,000 year reign where Christ alone rules the Earth from Earth. All the living people are presented to God as being Saints and an eternal era of being ruled over by God and the Lamb begins.
1Co:15:28:
And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.
Later.
Okay. Let's do the work of harmonizing II Peter 3:3-13, I Corinthians 15:20-28, and Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1, shall we?
2 Peter 3:3-13 (PETER)
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (PAUL)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1 (JOHN)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
KJV
Notice the linkage: Revelation 21:1 is talking about the New Earth and its New Atmosphere as is 2 Peter 3:13. Thus, the first earth and its first atmosphere that John sees has "passed away" is the same as the first and second earths and atmospheres that Peter sees.
John talks about two resurrections: The first resurrection is before the Millennium (Greek: chilia etee), while the second resurrection is after the Millennium and leads the "resurrectees" into Judgment! Therefore, the "judgment of the dead" AFTER the Millennium is the judgment that Peter calls "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." It's harder to see in the English than in the Greek, but Paul also speaks of two resurrections (actually three counting Yeshua`s FIRSTFRUITS resurrection) in verses 23-26. The LAST ENEMY that shall be destroyed or subdued is DEATH! This is a clear link between John's verse 14 and Paul's verse 26!
Now, in your claim that "it is God who rules until all 'enemies' have been put under Christ's (feet/footstool)," you are forgetting (or ignoring) certain key passages:
John 5:21-29
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV
What about Psalm 2?
Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV
You are also forgetting about what a "King" does! He "rules?" Well, what does that entail? No, He IS a Judge! That's a King's JOB! We have a few examples in Scripture. Here's one of them:
1 Kings 3:16-28
16 Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him.
17 And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house.
18 And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house.
19 And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it.
20 And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.
21 And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear.
22 And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king.
23 Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living.
24 And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king.
25 And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other.
26 Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it.
27 Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof.
28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.
KJV
The Messiah's rulership is first, because "all judgment was committed to Him!" Then, after He has subdued all of His enemies, He turns the Kingdom of Kingdoms (the Empire) over to His Father that "God may be all in all."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/2/2010 3:34:35 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy ... again....,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Okay. Let's do the work of harmonizing II Peter 3:3-13, I Corinthians 15:20-28, and Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1, shall we?
2 Peter 3:3-13 (PETER)
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (PAUL)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1 (JOHN)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
KJV
Notice the linkage: Revelation 21:1 is talking about the New Earth and its New Atmosphere as is 2 Peter 3:13. Thus, the first earth and its first atmosphere that John sees has "passed away" is the same as the first and second earths and atmospheres that Peter sees.
John talks about two resurrections: The first resurrection is before the Millennium (Greek: chilia etee), while the second resurrection is after the Millennium and leads the "resurrectees" into Judgment! Therefore, the "judgment of the dead" AFTER the Millennium is the judgment that Peter calls "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." It's harder to see in the English than in the Greek, but Paul also speaks of two resurrections (actually three counting Yeshua`s FIRSTFRUITS resurrection) in verses 23-26. The LAST ENEMY that shall be destroyed or subdued is DEATH! This is a clear link between John's verse 14 and Paul's verse 26!
The Earth and Heavens are said to be not found right after the fire from God in Heaven sends Satan to the fiery lake, along with any other fallen angels. Those are the ungodly men being judged, Jude is much cleared on that point than this reference. This is describing a judgment that is irreversible.
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
This is an example who will be left dwelling on that Earth.
M't:8:28:
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes,
there met him two possessed with devils,
coming out of the tombs,
exceeding fierce,
so that no man might pass by that way.
M't:8:29:
And,
behold,
they cried out,
saying,
What have we to do with thee,
Jesus,
thou Son of God?
art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
The time of their Judgment is at the same time Satan is sent to the lake. The bones of those that Israel marks, gathers and buries in Eze:39 would be with Satan but it is not said if they are the 200M or not. They are angelic in nature, they can appear as men because they took wives and had children with them. With the 4 from the 6th trump they are as strong as described. The riders would be the 'ungodly men'
Jude:1:4:
For there are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness,
and denying the only Lord God,
and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude:1:5:
I will therefore put you in remembrance,
though ye once knew this,
how that the Lord,
having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude:1:6:
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Here is how God looks at it. Prophecy happens as predicted and the day of Christ's return arrives. When Christ is handed the crown that is authority to use His sword to enforce the will of God in that the Earth belongs to the Kingdom of God by the end of that day. The vials are the wrath of God and Jesus is one of the Angels that pours them out. When those 7 are finished all the non-repented sinners are in the graves or hell, the Beast from the Pit and the False Prophet are in the lake, and Satan is in chains. That last things puts a halt on God's wrath, it is rekindled 1,000 years later ( 1,000 years equals a day with God)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Now, in your claim that "it is God who rules until all 'enemies' have been put under Christ's (feet/footstool)," you are forgetting (or ignoring) certain key passages:
John 5:21-29
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV
When God hands Christ that crown it carries the authority to determine who will be alive for the 1,000 years. When the Beast and False Prophet are defeated as in the last verse of Daniel 11 the next verse Da:12:1 is about the same judgment by Christ, it goes back to the time of Adam. The 1,000 years is viewed as a reward and it plays a part in their role in the New Earth. Christ judged the ones called 'the rest', God Almighty is the one on the White Throne. Where they are resurrected from has covered all their past sins. The only judgment that can come is regarding the 2nd death, a person just resurrected would have to sin at this point in order to be sent to the lake. This subject is somewhat longer but this OT verse is describing the 1,000 years. To get to the lake your sin has to be as great as the sins of the fallen angels.
Isa:24:21:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high,
and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa:24:22:
And they shall be gathered together,
as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison,
and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa:24:23:
Then the moon shall be confounded,
and the sun ashamed,
when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion,
and in Jerusalem,
and before his ancients gloriously.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What about Psalm 2?
Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV
The anger is over that same day, that is how powerful He is, if it is meant to stop, why drag it out?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You are also forgetting about what a "King" does! He "rules?" Well, what does that entail? No, He IS a Judge! That's a King's JOB! We have a few examples in Scripture.
Christ judges mankind as to who lives and who dies, Angels do the gathering. Christ's sword is the act of a King. If 2/3 of all Gentiles die on that day that would be a lot of broken pottery.
Later, have faith in God.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/3/2010 10:32:51 PM
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Wayne230
Posts: 129
Joined: 1/3/2010
From: Portland Oregon
Status: offline
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The way I understand it Preterism can't be real because the tribulation deals specifically with Israel. in 70 ad Israel was scattered throughout the nations. plus there is no evidence from history of it. if we look at both Daniel and Ezekiel we see Israel being the reason for the Tribulation because it will point them to Christ as the Messiah and the one who will ultimately deliver the Jews from their destruction. for that reason I am pre trib because I don't see the need for Christians during that time. my pastor mentioned that the Church of Jesus Christ is not mentioned after Revelation 4
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/4/2010 12:09:02 AM
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Reba
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayne230
The way I understand it Preterism can't be real because the tribulation deals specifically with Israel. in 70 ad Israel was scattered throughout the nations. plus there is no evidence from history of it. if we look at both Daniel and Ezekiel we see Israel being the reason for the Tribulation because it will point them to Christ as the Messiah and the one who will ultimately deliver the Jews from their destruction. for that reason I am pre trib because I don't see the need for Christians during that time. my pastor mentioned that the Church of Jesus Christ is not mentioned after Revelation 4
Does Israel have different salvation then the Cross of Christ?
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/4/2010 12:37:06 AM
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Wayne230
Posts: 129
Joined: 1/3/2010
From: Portland Oregon
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayne230
The way I understand it Preterism can't be real because the tribulation deals specifically with Israel. in 70 ad Israel was scattered throughout the nations. plus there is no evidence from history of it. if we look at both Daniel and Ezekiel we see Israel being the reason for the Tribulation because it will point them to Christ as the Messiah and the one who will ultimately deliver the Jews from their destruction. for that reason I am pre trib because I don't see the need for Christians during that time. my pastor mentioned that the Church of Jesus Christ is not mentioned after Revelation 4
Does Israel have different salvation then the Cross of Christ?
Not to my knowledge. we all are saved by the grace of God through Christ. My point is that Israel has rejected Jesus as its Messiah and the tribulation will make the nation come to grips with that.
_____________________________
I am not perfect just forgiven
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/4/2010 1:57:51 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11820
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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Thread temporarily closed pending review.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/4/2010 8:11:38 PM
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ta_mosquito
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OK, the thread is reopened. I have deleted the last several posts for being off topic.
This is the Preterism thread. Here is the OP as a refresher:
Are the prophecies of Daniel, Revelation, etc, yet to come, or were they fulfilled in the first century? Are any prophecies yet to be fulfilled?
Is a double-fulfillment of Matthew 24 possible—one in 70 AD for Jerusalem and one in the future with world-wide impact?
Is it possible to hold a full Preterist view and believe the Nicene Creed?
Discuss these and other issues that revolve around the topic of Preterism.
Please stick to topic.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 12:59:42 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, all.
I don't know who changed the RE: message, but, to the contrary, there IS a Scriptural basis for partial preterism when it comes to Matthew 24, 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
Some of Matthew 24 WAS already fulfilled shortly after Yeshua`s ascension while some of it is yet to be fulfilled. It is not fully yet to be fulfilled, nor is there a "double fulfillment" to be anticipated. IMO, that's just confusion. The whole of the chapters cover the entire period from Yeshua`s direct disciples to the time when He returns on the clouds of the sky.
Yeshua`s first coming was the literal fulfillment of many Scriptural prophecies; so will be His second coming. Thus, IMO, we can't just relegate the future prophecies in these chapters to a "spiritual" coming of Yeshua` in the past, not at Pentecost and certainly not at Stephen's stoning! Therefore, the latter portions of these chapters have not yet been fulfilled. We just also need to recognize that such statements as ...
Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
... have already been fulfilled and should have no place in our expectations for the future.
It's not difficult to understand if you know a little bit about the background of the culture and times in which Yeshua` and His disciples lived. Furthermore, get the WHOLE picture by reading through Mark 13 and Luke 21 as well! These are three TRUE accounts of the same event! Therefore, they should mesh without contradiction. The Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) has seen to it that they do not contradict each other.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 2:11:12 PM
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Reba
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/18/2008
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Retrobyter,
What do you understand to be the first resurection?
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 5:24:14 PM
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Wayne230
Posts: 129
Joined: 1/3/2010
From: Portland Oregon
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, all.
I don't know who changed the RE: message, but, to the contrary, there IS a Scriptural basis for partial preterism when it comes to Matthew 24, 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
Some of Matthew 24 WAS already fulfilled shortly after Yeshua`s ascension while some of it is yet to be fulfilled. It is not fully yet to be fulfilled, nor is there a "double fulfillment" to be anticipated. IMO, that's just confusion. The whole of the chapters cover the entire period from Yeshua`s direct disciples to the time when He returns on the clouds of the sky.
Yeshua`s first coming was the literal fulfillment of many Scriptural prophecies; so will be His second coming. Thus, IMO, we can't just relegate the future prophecies in these chapters to a "spiritual" coming of Yeshua` in the past, not at Pentecost and certainly not at Stephen's stoning! Therefore, the latter portions of these chapters have not yet been fulfilled. We just also need to recognize that such statements as ...
Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
... have already been fulfilled and should have no place in our expectations for the future.
It's not difficult to understand if you know a little bit about the background of the culture and times in which Yeshua` and His disciples lived. Furthermore, get the WHOLE picture by reading through Mark 13 and Luke 21 as well! These are three TRUE accounts of the same event! Therefore, they should mesh without contradiction. The Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) has seen to it that they do not contradict each other.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
I don't think the point of those passages is the tribulation but the scattering of the Jews among the nations. that was prophesied before and happened in 70ad but the end times haven't happened because they are about Israel and the coming to Christ of that nation. therefore Christians won't be needed, therefore there has to be a Rapture and its pretrib, If there is no Rapture we Christians are the most miserable of all people. I want to know what historical evidence is there of any preteristic event?
_____________________________
I am not perfect just forgiven
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 7:48:12 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Reba.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
Retrobyter,
What do you understand to be the first resurection?
The first resurrection, as it is described in both Revelation 20:4-6 and in I Cor. 15:23b, is the resurrection of the just BEFORE the 1000 years when haSatan is jailed.
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV
1 Cor 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
KJV
Christ, as the "firstfruits," is a FORETASTE of the first resurrection! Indeed, He is the One who is given the FIRST resurrected body capable of GIVING LIFE! (I Cor. 15:45)
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 8:39:40 PM
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Reba
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I want to know what historical evidence is there of any preteristic event?
History of the time of 'that' generation Jesus speaks of in Matt 24. The writtings of Josephas.
How many time does Christ come to Israel?
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 9:08:21 PM
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Wayne230
Posts: 129
Joined: 1/3/2010
From: Portland Oregon
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Leonelrb.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leonelrb
Hello Retrobyter,
quote:
(Oh, and we WILL be getting back our physical bodies--"spiritual" bodies does NOT mean that they are immaterial but that they are SUPER bodies!)
Thank you very much for that great explanation. I am still struggling with the quote above. Are you saying that this physical body will be similar to the body Adam and Eve had before they sinned, or will this be a superior body? Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again?
I believe that Adam and Chavah (Eve) had better bodies than we have today, but Adam's body was inferior to the body of the "Second Adam" after Yeshua`s resurrection, according to I Cor. 15:44-49.
Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again? Frankly, I don't know. I know that we will "neither marry nor be given in marriage," according to Yeshua`, but whether that includes reproduction or not, I don't know. I rather believe that it does, but there's no proof that I know of. So, my gut reaction is to say, no, they will not reproduce, but don't take my word on it.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
The ones alive for the 1,000 years are the first to receive immortal bodies, if they are not married they will not be having children. If their population remains static then the way they 'parent' would be to the children that are born to the ones who live outside the Holy City in the New Earth. The children being born would be like grandchildren are to us.
These topics keep going back to if the 70 weeks have been fulfilled or not. I'm not if that point can be argued in any other thread?
Yes, and that is the distant link and why this discussion ended up in this thread. I am NOT of the opinion that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. I believe that there are 3.5 weeks left (not 7). So, I am not a pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, or prewrath, nor am I a full preterist. However, I completely believe in a millennium--not to describe the length of the Messiah's Kingdom, but to describe the length of time haSatan is incarcerated in the bottomless pit.
ON THE OTHER HAND, when one harmonizes II Peter 3:3-13, I Corinthians 15:20-28, and Revelation 20:1-15, then one finds that the Messiah reigns during the Millennium until He has subdued all of His enemies, the last enemy being Death, and then He turns over the Empire to His Father God while He remains the King of Isra'el. Furthermore, we have some SIGNIFICANT things that are said to be "forever" and are thus part of the New Earth with its New Sky and the New Jerusalem its capital city.
Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV
Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV
Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV
Isa 66:20-24
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV
Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Hi yourself!
I am not Jewish in case that wasn't clear but I am sympathetic toward Israel. I bring up Israel to show that the tribulation could not have happened in 70ad. what happened was that Israel was scattered through the nations.Jesus warned of that in Matthiew 24 to be sure, but that is not the same thing as the tribulation.I believe Isaiah is talking about a physical and a real Jerusalem which we who love Jesus will be part of. we have not seen that yet but that is coming. It seems to me that if the new Jerusalem or Heaven will not experience night and will see Jesus as in Revelation it seems impossible to me that any of that could have happened in 70ad. what will happen to us as believers is yet to take place. but Israel will recognize Jesus as its Messiah. he is what the Tribulation is all about. for that reason I believe we won't be part of that but will see him face to face.
_____________________________
I am not perfect just forgiven
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 9:12:01 PM
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Wayne230
Posts: 129
Joined: 1/3/2010
From: Portland Oregon
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
quote:
I want to know what historical evidence is there of any preteristic event?
History of the time of 'that' generation Jesus speaks of in Matt 24. The writtings of Josephas.
How many time does Christ come to Israel?
But thats still not part of history and Matt 24 is not about the end times as much as it is about Israel being scattered. also Jesus mentions the temple being destroyed. but one day the temple has to be restored and sacrifices will start up again. then the end will come. as far as I can tell there is no Temple in Jerusalem although they have made plans for one.
_____________________________
I am not perfect just forgiven
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 9:59:47 PM
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Reba
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/18/2008
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I must be careful how i respond this is not a thread obout Israel so i will behave.
Jesus uses "this" generation.. Revelation says shortly, and 'at hand'. How can things be so distant and yet be at hand. A lot happened 70 AD.
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Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 11:01:26 PM
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Wayne230
Posts: 129
Joined: 1/3/2010
From: Portland Oregon
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
I must be careful how i respond this is not a thread obout Israel so i will behave.
Jesus uses "this" generation.. Revelation says shortly, and 'at hand'. How can things be so distant and yet be at hand. A lot happened 70 AD.
but its about the Tribulation and you in no way can leave Israel out of that part, therefore no preterism . a lot did happen in 70 ad but the Lord's return wasn't part of that at all and has yet to happen. look at the prophets who talk about the end times and Israel has to be part of that. that nation has to return to Christ. also the Temple has to be rebuilt. that has not happened but it will.
_____________________________
I am not perfect just forgiven
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/6/2010 11:35:11 PM
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Reba
Posts: 771
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I agree He will return.
Again how many times will/does Jesus come to Israel?
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