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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 10:50:43 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I really think those are the pertinant questions; answer those, and the same answers will fit with Eve, Adam, you, and me. No sir, I respectfully disagree. You and I were born with our sinful natures as a consequence of Adam's Original Sin. That is why we rebelled until God cleansed us from all sin. But Lucifer and A&E were not created with sinful natures since God proclaimed His creation "very good". These are two different scenarios, IMHO.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 11:35:01 AM
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pabrain
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Re: Genesis 3, the Fall and the Curse, My post # 7
Hi drmark.
You state,
"I agree with the three respondents, especially benechi, who assessed your position as imaginative and untenable".
benechi, is entitled to his opinion, as are you, and every one else who contributes to this web site, but that does not mean that benechi is correct.
You ask,
"Just for the record, Edwin, do you think that satan's deception of Eve meant that she did not deliberately disobey God's command?"
Eve disobeyed God because she was deceived, had she not been, then I feel sure she would not have, hence the reason for the deception.
You also ask,
"do you have an opinion as to where rebellion came from or why Lucifer rebelled?"
Lucifer before he rebelled was as Adam and Eve were before the fall, that is sinlessly perfect, and having free will.
Why a free willed person should chose evil, I do not know, do you ?
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 1:49:23 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Eve disobeyed God because she was deceived, had she not been, then I feel sure she would not have, hence the reason for the deception. Please answer the question, Edwin, not with hypotheticals that never happened. Did Eve deliberately disobey God or did she unknowingly sin because she was deceived?
quote:
Why a free willed person should chose evil, I do not know, do you ? Because they freely allow their own self-centered prideful will to take precedence over God's Will.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 2:54:50 PM
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lightbeamrider
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Eve was deceived and she did sin. Eve touches the fruit first and then eats. In her mind the deed was done at the touch of the fruit since she received faulty instructions from Adam. (In my opinion) This establishes authority, God to Adam to Eve; It also explains why the Serpent went after Eve. She is the weak link in the chain. Since Adam received direct instructions from God and scripture does not directly indicate where Eve received instructions. If it would have been from God it would have been in Scripture and it would have contained the same instructions and not the add on. Or touch.
If true this means before Eve screws up with God, Adam screws up with Eve in that he gave her faulty instructions.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 2:59:12 PM
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drmark
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quote:
If true this means before Eve screws up with God, Adam screws up with Eve in that he gave her faulty instructions. So were Adam's faulty instructions his first sin?
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 3:07:32 PM
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lightbeamrider
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If true this means before Eve screws up with God, Adam screws up with Eve in that he gave her faulty instructions. So were Adam's faulty instructions his first sin?
No, nevertheless the consequences did find him out.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 3:32:54 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
It also explains why the Serpent went after Eve. She is the weak link in the chain.
how do you reason this, perhaps the serpent understood the difficult one was eve and left adam to the amatuers. iow perhaps the serpent knew that adam would not be able to convince his wife of anything 
so the serpent took that upon himself and left the easy one to eve
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 3:52:06 PM
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drmark
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quote:
iow perhaps the serpent knew that adam would not be able to convince his wife of anything And here I thought all along that was a result of the Fall, not the cause... 
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 3:52:18 PM
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lightbeamrider
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The Serpent generally always attacks at the weak point. Satan goes after Jesus after He fasts for 40 days and nights and is hungry. To Adam, Eve was no amateur. Both ate of the fruit but for different reasons. Eve was deceived and Adam ate knowingly in that Adam received instructions directly from God. The account is sketchy and the Serpent is crafty. He knew what he was doing when he went after Eve. Both Eve and the serpent mis quote scripture but for different reasons. The Serpent to seduce and Eve because she receives faulty instructions from Adam and not God as did Adam. It is not fact but it is theory that makes the most sense.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 3:56:38 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Both ate of the fruit but for different reasons. Nope, they both sinned for the very same reason - they put their own selfish will ahead of God's Will!
quote:
It is not fact but it is theory that makes the most sense. I believe the theory that makes the most sense is that people created in God's Image have the moral autonomy to make free will choices. Adam and Eve chose to disobey, period!
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 5:19:22 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
It is not fact but it is theory that makes the most sense.
if i understand your logic, the serpent thought he might fail in his attack against adam so he chose eve. the serpent knew that eve was more capable then the serpent to entice adam. that would require the serpent/satan to admit he was less powerful than eve. that doenst seem in line with his character
i havent read the whole thread but of what significance is it as to who was enticed first since sin entered the world thru adam. to my knowledge the entrance of sin into the world is not put on eve within scripture.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 5:27:23 PM
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drmark
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quote:
i havent read the whole thread but of what significance is it as to who was enticed first since sin entered the world thru adam. to my knowledge the entrance of sin into the world is not put on eve within scripture. Which gets us right back to my earlier question. Did Eve really sin if she was deceived and if so, then why does Paul insist that sin entered the world through Adam who was not deceived? As an aside, can a reasonable argument be made that Eve deceived her husband?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 6:03:53 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
[Which gets us right back to my earlier question. Did Eve really sin if she was deceived and if so, then why does Paul insist that sin entered the world through Adam who was not deceived? As an aside, can a reasonable argument be made that Eve deceived her husband?
to the second part i would think that adam decieved himself
james 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin ; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 6:43:43 PM
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drmark
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quote:
to the second part i would think that adam decieved himself Even though it was Eve who gave him a piece to eat...
I don't know, I sometimes wish the Scriptures were just a little more detailed about this event. I guess the bottom line for me is that they both willfully sinned, regardless of deception, when they both had the chance to obey instead, and that made them (and us when we sin) accountable.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 6:45:18 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I don't know, I sometimes wish the Scriptures were just a little more detailed about this event. I guess the bottom line for me is that they both willfully sinned, regardless of deception, when they both had the chance to obey instead, and that made them (and us when we sin) accountable.
i agree with everything you have said here
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 8:10:27 PM
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lightbeamrider
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
i havent read the whole thread but of what significance is it as to who was enticed first since sin entered the world thru adam. to my knowledge the entrance of sin into the world is not put on eve within scripture. Which gets us right back to my earlier question. Did Eve really sin if she was deceived and if so, then why does Paul insist that sin entered the world through Adam who was not deceived? As an aside, can a reasonable argument be made that Eve deceived her husband?
Adam is seed Eve is ground. That is why Jesus was born of woman. Original sin is passed through the seed of Adam. Jesus escaped the consequences because He had no earthly father. Only Adam and Jesus had no earthly Father.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 8:23:33 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Adam is seed Eve is ground. That is why Jesus was born of woman. Original sin is passed through the seed of Adam. Jesus escaped the consequences because He had no earthly father. References, please.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/7/2010 10:02:02 PM
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gatolover
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Just a quick observation....
Perhaps the better question is "Who was supposed to be guarding the Garden?"
How'd that serpent slip in anyway? Where was Adam when that happened? And Scripture doesn't tell us what he told Eve about the tree. Maybe he made up his own rules, or God forbid, added to the word of God.
Hmmmm. So many unanswerable questions.
Just my $.02.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/8/2010 3:49:16 AM
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pabrain
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drmark you ask,
"Did Eve deliberately disobey God or did she unknowingly sin because she was deceived?"
I believe that she did unknowingly sin because she was deceived
You also say,
"Because they freely allow their own self-centered prideful will to take precedence over God's Will".
Please quote Scripture verses to support this.
Thank you.
Edwin.
< Message edited by pabrain -- 6/8/2010 6:13:41 AM >
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/8/2010 8:46:00 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5787
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quote:
I believe that she did unknowingly sin because she was deceived Thanks, Edwin. I totally disagree but that's the topic for another discussion.
quote:
Please quote Scripture verses to support this. Genesis 4:7
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/8/2010 9:22:15 AM
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lightbeamrider
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Adam is seed Eve is ground. That is why Jesus was born of woman. Original sin is passed through the seed of Adam. Jesus escaped the consequences because He had no earthly father. References, please.
No. We have been down that road before and i am not going out to my storage garage to find my Old Testament studies book which is buried somewhere to accommodate you.
The last time you asked for references i remember citing two verses in Ezekiel. You commented on the one that you could use to discredit the whole post and you ignored the other which was not so easy to dismiss.
The fact being i don't have the time and i am not even a Doctor. Which makes me wonder where do you get the time to post 5346 posts in less than 4 years? I figure it averages out to 3.75 posts per day with absolutely nothing written on your identity page. Not even your gender.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/8/2010 9:25:38 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5787
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quote:
No. That speaks volumes right there...
quote:
I figure it averages out to 3.75 posts per day with absolutely nothing written on your identity page. How much time did you waste calculating this worthless piece of trivia?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/9/2010 4:38:00 AM
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pabrain
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Hi drmark
quote:
Please quote Scripture verses to support this.
Genesis 4:7
This verse is only applicable to persons after the fall, it does not apply to Adam and Eve before the fall.
I hope to deal with your first comment later.
Bast wishes.
Edwin.
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/9/2010 8:58:39 AM
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Doghouse
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I haven't had time to read all the posts and see how this discussion developed, but I believe the following...
The story of the fall of mankind is a concise set of prose describing the results of a creature created with a rational mind and the ability to freely choose. It speaks to the capability of both men and women to choose wrong from among the alternatives of right and wrong, as the story defines "right" for both individuals, via the instructions of God (the first law, for want of a better term, was to not eat the fruit).
The story, interestingly enough, describes the consequences of disobeying the law, before the judgment or acknowledment of it (God identifies that the Law has been broken by the emotion of shame present in Adam and Eve after the fact, the result of breaking the law, and not the action of it). Kind of interesting for a people known for following the law simply for the law's sake.
Both individuals rationalized disobedience by attempting to justify the ends that might result from the means of sin. How totally accurate that is...isn't it? Both tried to dodge the accountability of that choice, Eve by laying blame on the serpent, Adam by laying blame on Eve.
Therefore, the story highlights the fact that both men and women are rational creatures, and are capable of analyzing a situation, formulating a choice, and enacting that choice. Whether or not that choice be right or wrong. And in the case of wrong, there are consequences.
Both are capable of trying to abandon responsibility and accountability. I believe these passages foreshadow the need to confess our sins (the antithesis of abandoning responsibility).
Who enticed Eve? - her rational mind and a free will choice...
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...since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith...
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RE: Who enticed Eve? - 6/9/2010 9:03:06 AM
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drmark
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quote:
This verse is only applicable to persons after the fall, it does not apply to Adam and Eve before the fall. That's your opinion and I totally disagree with it. Sin is sin regardless of when it occurred in human history!
quote:
Who enticed Eve? - her rational mind and a free will choice... Amen, Doghouse, well stated!
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