Selective Service

Selective Service (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Selective Service

The draft is completely unacceptable.

24% (11)

The draft is acceptable in time of war.

37% (17)

There should always be a draft/mandatory serice for all.

22% (10)

Other (Please Explain)

15% (7)

Total Votes : 45

(last vote on : 5/2/2010 1:44:06 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

David-West -> Selective Service (2/27/2010 2:48:25 AM)
I'm curious what everyone here thinks about Selective Service and the draft. It's a topic I've discussed several times recently with my younger brother, who will be 18 in about a month. As a staunch libertarian, I am 100% opposed to a draft or any form of mandatory, non-punishment service. I've even told him several times that, if I were him, I'd practice civil disobedience and simply not register for the draft, but he wants to apply for FAFSA and apparently you need to be registered with the selective service to apply for it (I told him I wouldn't take any federal money for school either, but he'd hear none of it). So what do you guys think? I'm asking Americans in particular but I'd be glad to hear from anyone. Is the draft good or bad? Should there be a required period of military or civil service for all citizens? If you think the draft is bad, should we actively work to abolish the Selective Service System or just count on the fact that a draft seems unlikely in this day and age? Personally, I think it's terrible that we ever had a draft to begin with. Not only does it go against basic, logical, human rights, it blatantly violates the 13th amendment. I think that if a country feels it must resort to slavery to defend itself it probably needs to step back and consider whether or not it (or at least, what it's trying to do) is worth fighting for. If no one is willing to fight the war, then it's probably time the government saw some significant downsizing.

3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 10:13:43 AM)
If there were a draft, I'd encourage my sons to obey if they have no genuine objection to military service (ie: no scooting out of it just because it's unpleasant or hard). I think if we are going to choose to live in a country and enjoy the benefits it provides us we have an obligation to obey the laws to the point that they do not require us to sin. If we live in a country that serves us well (safety, infrastructure, good governance), we ought to be willing to serve the country on some level. OTOH, I am supremely grateful to live in a country where (currently) military service is a free choice, and where space is made for people who feel it would be sin to bear arms against anyone (Amish/Mennonite, for instance). I would not like to see mandatory civil service or military draft take effect in the US because I do think it goes against the foundations of this country and is a big leap down the wrong path.

moon_mouse -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 10:59:31 AM)
I agree. I think our country has found the proper balance, a system in place for a security emergency if needed, with a provision for serious moral objection. I also agree that we shouldn't have mandatory service for all, but I do think our government should give more options for young people who want opportunities to serve (like a GI Bill type program for new teachers, medical personnel, people in the construction trades, and so forth).

rcjames -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 11:11:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moon_mouse but I do think our government should give more options for young people who want opportunities to serve (like a GI Bill type program for new teachers, medical personnel, people in the construction trades, and so forth). Could you please expand on your ideas? Thanks RC

thebaker -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 11:21:31 AM)
i'm against it. i did register 20 years ago when i had to and i lived in fear for all the years it lasted. my father got drafted into vietnam and he ain't been the same since. his hopes of improving his education died. he came back a diabetic because of something they dropped on them. he's battled alcohol forever. he went through his yearbook with me and pointed to person after person after person after person he graduated with who died in vietnam. all i could think about was that if the governemnt sent me somewhere to fight a war, i'd die immediately. i can't fight. can't shoot. i was not made for hand to hand combat of any kind. to force 18 year olds to fight a war they know nothing about is wrong. but i do agree that if the law says for one to register, then one must register.

jhuperetes -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 12:18:51 PM)
Mandatory draft. Both genders. All, over 18 & under 35. 2 years. No excuses. Done.

car2ner -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 1:10:03 PM)
quote: Mandatory draft. Both genders. All, over 18 & under 35. 2 years. No excuses. Done. I tend to agree...

KaptZ -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 2:54:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: car2ner quote: Mandatory draft. Both genders. All, over 18 & under 35. 2 years. No excuses. Done. I tend to agree... Me too. Maybe a compromise. Take all 18 year olds and require them to serve for two years in the National Guard. You can then go to college, get a civilian job or join the regular military if you want. Moral objections? You can be a medic. I applaud the men a women who chose to serve in the military now. I also appreciate the argument that they are better soldiers than those serving against their will. However, how many times can we send the same people overseas into combat? 2 times, 6 times, 10 times? Just keep sending them until they get killed, maimed or are finally just mentally destroyed? We're going to run out of these people eventually. I also believe that it would be a benefit for people of all walks of life to have to serve together. I don't personally know a single person who has served in any branch of the military. I think there is a real split between those who serve generation after generation and those who don't seem to even notice. It can be easy to support a war if you know no one close to you will be in danger. We're all citizens of this country and we all reap the benefits of that citizenship. Having to contribute a couple years to the preservation of said country seems pretty reasonable to me. I registered years ago and if the US military still needs this broken down 43 year old with bad eyes and asthma I'll take the call.[:D]

3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 4:32:38 PM)
quote: It can be easy to support a war if you know no one close to you will be in danger. Honestly, I see the exact opposite. The people I know with a military background or family in military are much more likely to view almost any military action as national defense and a worthy cause. I also know folks with several generations worth of anti-war activism or conciencious objectorship, and they are by far more likely to object to any military action whatever the reason.

3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 4:38:51 PM)
quote: all i could think about was that if the governemnt sent me somewhere to fight a war, i'd die immediately. i can't fight. can't shoot. i was not made for hand to hand combat of any kind. to force 18 year olds to fight a war they know nothing about is wrong. It's not like the American military would be snatching kids off the streets and shipping them to the front the next day. [&:] Not all volunteers start off battle-ready. That's what boot camp and training are for. If there were a compulsory draft, you can be sure they would teach you how to fight. I am against compulsory draft, but I am very sure that any military service, mandatory or not, comes with training first.

alwaysinjoy2000 -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 6:45:34 PM)
I agree the draft would be a BAD idea. My father was former career army and he served with a few people under his command that were still doing their "time" from when they were drafted. He told me they were the worst soldiers. They were forced to join the military and that reflected in how they did their job, which was not very motivated or even with a passion or interest in what they were doing. It was just "doing their time". The majority of military or former military would probably agree with him. The reason why we have one of the best trained militaries in the world are the men and women that join up do so of their own free will. None are forced into doing what they do. I agree with the OP that the draft is a terrible idea. There are many ways people can give back to their country or communities without needing to resort to something compulsory like a military draft. The thought just leaves a bad taste in my mind..[&o]

jhuperetes -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 7:02:47 PM)
There are several branches to the US military. There is no reason someone could not find something they can do, or even enjoy. They might even learn some respect, honor and morals.

3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 8:37:38 PM)
quote: There is no reason someone could not find something they can do, or even enjoy. They might even learn some respect, honor and morals. There are some who cannot in good concience participate in anything military related. Some, I would say, certainly do need to learn those qualities you mentioned. Others already have them. I do not think a compulsory draft would positively affect either group. The immoral and dishonorable would continue their immorality and develop severe resentment. The moral and honorable would be served an injustice, and would more likely willingly die than support a military operation, so they wouldn't be particularly helpful.

iluvatar -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 11:14:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jhuperetes There are several branches to the US military. There is no reason someone could not find something they can do, or even enjoy. They might even learn some respect, honor and morals. Except for the fact that you're basically being kidnapped and forced into service. Any job would be difficult to enjoy under those conditions. Not to mention the fact that perhaps with the exception of Afghanistan, we haven't fought a war in defense of the US since WW2. I wouldn't really appreciate being sent overseas to die because our leaders feel like imposing their political agendas on others. I'd move to Canada before I put up with that nonsense. -Dan.

gralan -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 11:23:50 PM)
I personally think that there is a cost to living in a society. And as a Christian, I am convinced there is a cost to living in the Kingdom of God. I believe mandatory service is a good idea if it is expanded to represent ideas presented by many people on both sides of the aisles (and those in the aisles itself) such as community service, people processing goods for use by the government, tutor immigrants studying to pass citizenship exams, etc. I do not believe mandatory service needs to mandate military service. These are not, as some may think, new ideas. In the past, some attempts have had success and failure both. There is mandatory service in the Kingdom of God; its just that a lot of soldiers of the cross are awol. For those who have confused me in the past as being a liberal, I signed up for two tours in the U.S. Army and later served in the active Army Reserve on assignment for the pay office for Government Billing west of the Mississippi; I was stationed at 5 different posts in my service time. I held 3 different MOS. There was no draft when I served, even when bearing arms overseas. I also know that we serve our King first and primarily. In the first centuries of our history, service as a Roman soldier was considered antithetical to being a professing obedient Christian. God instituted mandatory service for war, as proved in the Old Testament texts. I think that everything that does not proceed from faith is sin. Now, think about that. Selah.

makarizo -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 11:26:13 PM)
I would do a lot of things for my country, but I would never be a part of a human killing organization...... draft me and I will go to a prison camp like my grandfather and great grandfather.

gralan -> RE: Selective Service (2/27/2010 11:37:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: makarizo I would do a lot of things for my country, but I would never be a part of a human killing organization...... draft me and I will go to a prison camp like my grandfather and great grandfather. It has been said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. [;)] I'm glad that you have a firm conviction about your position on this. Praise be our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. Come Lord Jesus Come.

Mollymouser -> RE: Selective Service (2/28/2010 2:05:03 AM)
As long as our military is adequately and fully staffed by volunteers, there is no need for a compulsory draft. But is it prudent to have people register so that they could be located in case of an unforseen national crisis triggering the need for a wartime draft? Yep.

didymus101 -> RE: Selective Service (2/28/2010 2:12:21 AM)
It was 1966 and the Vietnam Conflict was heating up. I was in my second year of college on a track scholarship and had a very, very nice life. I also had a deferment that would last at least until I graduated. What made me skip afternoon classes one bright and simply marvelous October day and go down to the draft board and change my status to 1A is difficult to explain, and more difficult to believe. The only two people who I felt truly understood were my younger sister and brother. They intimately knew how odd I was. My older brother, then a lieutenant in the Coast Guard, just smirked and shook his head when I explained my reasons. I was a strict Roman Catholic, very devout in the practice of that faith. And I had had what I considered a "special relationship" with Jesus from the time I was seven. For me, going to war was wrong no matter how supposedly "just" anyone tried to make it. There was simply no such thing as a Just War. Innocent people got killed and that was, plain and simple, murder. SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) had their start and a healthy contingent on our campus. But I did not protest with them or give any credence to their arguments: I was going by Scripture and Scripture said "rebellion" against authorities was wrong. We must submit...as long as it did not violate conscience. And if we chose to commit civil disobedience out of good conscience only, then we simply submitted to arrest. As a Christian we had to stand by our principles. This is already too long so I'll get to the point. I chose to go 1A because I felt the frontline needed someone who did not see an enemy on the other side of the barbed wire. As a Christian, I also felt it was wrong to, as I saw it, sneak out of making a real choice by a deferment while another was sent to serve in my place. I scored high on all the tests and was offered flight school and other options but refused, choosing infantry all the way. And I got it. Basic, AIT, and then Fort Benning for a hundred ways to kill. I was to be Long Range Recon (a profession with a very high turnover). It was also not the best job for a pacifist. What I would actually do once I got to Nam I prayed about almost ceaselessly. After graduation, they told us our orders for Nam would come within ten days, along with a thirty day leave to say goodbye to the good life. What happened? My MOS was changed to Crypto-clerk, the only one in my company to receive a change, and I never came near any harm. Is there a message in my delieverance? It is the law to register and we must submit. If we are against fighting in a war in genuine good conscience, we commit civil disobedience and quietly submit to arrest. I feel it is also an obligation of a Christian, before entering service to fight in a war if good conscience does not object, to find out as much as possible from reliable sources about the true reasons for the conflict. The interests of our government should always be questioned. Our obligation and allegiance is only to the will of God.

GraceyGirl -> RE: Selective Service (2/28/2010 11:31:48 AM)
It's easy to form opinions about the draft during peace time. I joined the reserves the summer after 9/11. I'd been a paramedic for a number of years already, and had seen the devastation that human beings do to one another. My husband had just wrapped up four years of AD in the USMC and was beginning 4 in reserves. What made me enlist? Honestly, I'm not sure. I had two small children - the oldest wasn't even in pre-K yet. But after what happened on American soil that Tuesday the year prior, I couldn't simply do nothing. I spent six years rescuing people, and teaching others to do the same. I spent six years holding LIFE in my hands, and holding the hands of the dying. I spent six years serving a nation who didn't know I existed, b/c they never saw me unless they needed me. I spent six years standing in the shadows, content to simply wait until I was needed. There's a line that men and women guard in the dark of night, and make no mistake, it's very real. They volunteer, they give up THEIR freedom to protect yours. They assimilate into a group identity so that your right to be an individual is proctected. They give up their political values and will defend to death a commander they do not agree with in order for you to have your liberal, extremist, or conservative opinions. No one in this country is put to death by our military for opinions differing from that of the national leadership. Think about that the next time you want to call a soldier a murderer. I am happy to live in a country where I have the freedom to VOLUNTARILY join our national defenses. I'm glad they are there, protecting my family from all threats. . .foreign and domestic. I'm glad there is currently no draft and I hope there's never another one. But make no mistake - I would put my son in the car and drive him to the draft office myself if the draft were reinstated. And I would remind him of the honor and privilege associated with protecting those who cannot protect themselves, and of defending freedom and democracy. I'd tell him about the men and women who travelled this road before, and of the ones who would come after. To borrow from the idiom, "Freedom isn't free" we must all understand that the freedoms we enjoy are PAID for by someone. Just as Jesus Christ paid the price for our freedom from Hell, people have paid a high price that we as American enjoy the freedoms we do. Our democracy was made possible by the voluntary risks men and women in our military took upon themselves.

David-West -> RE: Selective Service (2/28/2010 11:44:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jhuperetes They might even learn some respect, honor and morals. OK, I've got to call you out on this one. Maybe the 75th Ranger Regiment isn't a good representative of the military as a whole, but people around here have absolutely terrible morals, and most get worse as their time in service wears on. The respect and honor are only facades, and very flimsy ones at that. Even by the leadership I'm often mocked (kinda makes me feel proud, actually) for being open about the fact that I don't drink or have sex. I have never seen such a high concentration of men with no respect for women as I have here. It's disgusting. quote: It is the law to register and we must submit. What about cases when the law is contradictory? Can one then choose to follow the highest law of the land? In this case, I think that one could make a very valid case that, as the 13th amendment outlaws involuntary labor, the draft was illegal to begin with. What should you do in a situation like that? That's why I've always taken some issue with the idea that Christians should simply do whatever the law says. There are some things the law CAN NOT do, but by the logic of some (not saying you are this way, I'm just going off on a tangent here) we should just bend over and do whatever anyone in a position of authority says. The second amendment says the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. So if there is ever a sweeping, nationwide ban on guns, doesn't that mean thst the law is illegal? So then which law do we follow? quote: But make no mistake - I would put my son in the car and drive him to the draft office myself if the draft were reinstated. And I would remind him of the honor and privilege associated with protecting those who cannot protect themselves, and of defending freedom and democracy. I'd tell him about the men and women who travelled this road before, and of the ones who would come after. To borrow from the idiom, "Freedom isn't free" we must all understand that the freedoms we enjoy are PAID for by someone. Just as Jesus Christ paid the price for our freedom from Hell, people have paid a high price that we as American enjoy the freedoms we do. Our democracy was made possible by the voluntary risks men and women in our military took upon themselves. I find it highly debatable that, at least at this point in the war, we're actually protecting freedom. Personally, I see the government as a much bigger threat to freedom than a bunch of third-world guerrillas 10,000 miles away.

jhuperetes -> RE: Selective Service (2/28/2010 1:26:35 PM)
Where do any of you get the notion that war or military is sin? In my personal experience, those who belittle and label soldiering as sinful are the first ones to spit on me or call me and my brothers in arms foul names when we return from duty. It is also, in my personal experience, are the same exact people who will use me, nay, demand that I act as a human shield for them. The reason so many have a problem with mandatory draft is because ... you have tasted the euphonic nectar of no sacrifice. If anything military, police, Fire, EMS and such jobs are more Christ-like, then other occupations. *GraceyGirl*, thank you. You said it much more eloquently then I could have.

jhuperetes -> RE: Selective Service (2/28/2010 1:31:58 PM)
David-West, then the 75th forgot the Ranger's creed.

3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Selective Service (2/28/2010 2:06:19 PM)
quote: Where do any of you get the notion that war or military is sin? I am not one of them (touch my babies with intent to harm, and I will squash you like a bug [8D]), but there are some people who genuinely believe that to kill ever would be disobeying Jesus' commands to them in the NT. They also believe that Christians are to be seperate from the world and in their understanding, that means participating in political (including voting) or military functions in an earthly nation or kingdom is out. And these are people who are willing to sacrifice their lives for that conviction. They would rather die than kill someone even in self-defense, and have proven willing to do so historically from the very beginning of their denomination. I grew up in that faith tradition and I know them to be very consistent in that regard. Never heard any of them point fingers at soldiers and say anything disrespectful or dishonoring. Their theology and doctrine simply does not allow them to commit any act of violence at any level for any reason. They would not demand anyone else to kill for them. And they are perfectly willing to participate in volunteer services like EMS and fire-fighting. These are not the same people who would flee to Canada to avoid the draft, or go into hiding, or spit on soldiers or shout invectives at them. They quietly refused the draft and willingly accepted the consequences--in previous wars that meant going to jail, serving their time doing menial jobs in mental health hospitals, even volunteering as "guinea pigs" for government scientists. For a very small number, it did mean death. These types of conciencious objectors are not raving liberals or risk-avoidant lazy people. They would not call a solider a sinner, though they might wonder how he reconciles Jesus' teaching on peace with the act of taking up arms for the sake of a secular nation.

iluvatar -> RE: Selective Service (2/28/2010 2:21:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jhuperetes Where do any of you get the notion that war or military is sin? War, in and of itself, can be just and not sinful. But there are certainly plenty of ways for a war to be unjust and sinful, either through its motivations or through its means of execution. The sinful motivations I'd blame on the commanders and executives, not on the soldiers. The sinful acts during war I'd blame on whomever was responsible for committing them. -Dan.

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