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[Poll]
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Can the NT exist without the OT?
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| I don't know |
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| What is the relevance? |
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| no |
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| yes |
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Total Votes : 50
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(last vote on : 5/26/2010 9:13:00 AM)
(Poll will run till: 1/1/2011 12:00:00 AM)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 10:20:01 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2719
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Yes.
Then what about all of the others who said they were HaMeshiach?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 10:23:48 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
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They weren't. A BELIEVER recognizes that. His sheep recognize His voice.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 1:05:34 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2719
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
This would mean people need to be taught scripture, lots and lots of it before accepting and following Christ. It doesn't often work that way does it?
It is said by Paul that He preached Christ and Christ crucified.
(disclaimer: I am PRO OT)
(1 Cor. 2:1-6) "When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing."
He spoke only Yeshua HaMeshiach and the Sacrifice in the beginning, because He did not want to overwhelm them with his great intellect or with charisma, but wanted them to accept Yeshua based on the Scriptures. This does not preclude the use of the Tanach. It just means that he focused his expositions on those things that refer to Yeshua HaMeshiach, ie. the prophecies and common teachings regarding HaMeshiach. That said, he did speak of other things in his letters and on later visits.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 1:13:22 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2719
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
They weren't. A BELIEVER recognizes that. His sheep recognize His voice.
Are you saying one must have a mystical revelation in order to be saved? If not, what is is about "His voice" that brings about this recognition. In fact, even if one must have a mystical revelation, how does one differentiate one voice from another? This sounds like hypercalvinism and/or gnosticism. Some hear Yeshua's voice and follow it to heaven, while others hear other voices and go somewhere else. Only those who hear the voice know the difference.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 1:21:23 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
This would mean people need to be taught scripture, lots and lots of it before accepting and following Christ. It doesn't often work that way does it?
It is said by Paul that He preached Christ and Christ crucified.
(disclaimer: I am PRO OT)
(1 Cor. 2:1-6) "When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing."
He spoke only Yeshua HaMeshiach and the Sacrifice in the beginning, because He did not want to overwhelm them with his great intellect or with charisma, but wanted them to accept Yeshua based on the Scriptures. This does not preclude the use of the Tanach. It just means that he focused his expositions on those things that refer to Yeshua HaMeshiach, ie. the prophecies and common teachings regarding HaMeshiach. That said, he did speak of other things in his letters and on later visits.
I have NEVER suggested that the OT should be left out, never taught. You know that.
Christ crucified is not in the OT, yes it is type and shadowed for recognition but it did not occur there. Those without the law did in fact come to Jesus.
Seriously, keeping in mind that I am pro OT, tell me, can a person recognize Jesus and become a follower without reading or knowing the OT?
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 1:23:07 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
They weren't. A BELIEVER recognizes that. His sheep recognize His voice.
Are you saying one must have a mystical revelation in order to be saved? If not, what is is about "His voice" that brings about this recognition. In fact, even if one must have a mystical revelation, how does one differentiate one voice from another? This sounds like hypercalvinism and/or gnosticism. Some hear Yeshua's voice and follow it to heaven, while others hear other voices and go somewhere else. Only those who hear the voice know the difference.
You don't see the recognizing His voice as valid?
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 2:28:18 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2719
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
They weren't. A BELIEVER recognizes that. His sheep recognize His voice.
Are you saying one must have a mystical revelation in order to be saved? If not, what is is about "His voice" that brings about this recognition. In fact, even if one must have a mystical revelation, how does one differentiate one voice from another? This sounds like hypercalvinism and/or gnosticism. Some hear Yeshua's voice and follow it to heaven, while others hear other voices and go somewhere else. Only those who hear the voice know the difference.
You don't see the recognizing His voice as valid?
For one who likes to relegate the prophecies in the Tanach to types and shadows, you do seem to read a lot into this particular analogy? In that analogy His sheep hear His voice, this is not the voice of a new shepherd, but a familiar one. Yeshua used the same analogy when He said to the canaanite woman, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Now, I seem to recall many being quick to point out that this, that or the other thing only applies to Israel and not to the gentiles, because of some similar connection of verses. Yet, here we see an analogy that Yeshua used to refer to Israel expanded to include jews and gentiles. But I digress.
To get back to my point, this is a familiar voice. So, where would His sheep have heard His voice before?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 3:06:33 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
Status: offline
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You are taking this train on a side rail. I only made a point to say that BELIEVERS are to have correct doctrine and correct view of who Jesus is as the I am. A believer already KNOWS CHRIST. Has the indwelling of the HOLY spirit. You are trying to use my point to highlight other things. You are trying to argue with what you THINK I might be leading up to.
This all started with a statement I thought was an agreement. Yes you know full well I have a different perspective on the practice of the law. You also know full well that I highly esteem the OT. You really don't act like you know that.
You don't like the types and shadows concept in scripture? That is not my idea.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 8:41:51 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 7151
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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quote:
Seriously, keeping in mind that I am pro OT, tell me, can a person recognize Jesus and become a follower without reading or knowing the OT?
I would say that Yes, SOME can. However, I would be that not all can (even leaving out practicing Jews). For some the OT is necessary thus it is necessary. In addition more than history there is so much more we can learn about God and his relationship with His people through the OT. Yes, it is possible to be saved and spend a life serving God without it but it's certainly only getting by with the minimum and not seeking to know Him as well as we can to ignore the OT.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 9:39:18 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Yes, it is possible to be saved and spend a life serving God without it but it's certainly only getting by with the minimum and not seeking to know Him as well as we can to ignore the OT.
A person gets saved, lives the New Tesstament in their life, is obedient to the commands of Jesus, spreads the Gospel to others, prays for the sick, annointing them with oil, and is found by Christ on that gloryious day without spot, blemish, or wrinkle; is just getting by?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 1:31:16 PM
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gzusfrk
Posts: 43
Joined: 5/19/2009
Status: offline
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Hebrews tells us that we are under new law the law of Jesus,if you use one letter of the old law you must use them all,Jesus is the way to life,under old law we were His chosen people under new law we are the children of God,you cant cherry pick the ot.WE cant live by it,no one could,we now have a new covenent. JESUS.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 1:33:13 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7151
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Yes, it is possible to be saved and spend a life serving God without it but it's certainly only getting by with the minimum and not seeking to know Him as well as we can to ignore the OT.
A person gets saved, lives the New Tesstament in their life, is obedient to the commands of Jesus, spreads the Gospel to others, prays for the sick, annointing them with oil, and is found by Christ on that gloryious day without spot, blemish, or wrinkle; is just getting by?
Thanks
RC
The Christian life is not about "Doing" but about knowing and understanding our God and Savior as well as possible and that can't be done without the OT.
You've not yet answered my question about those who come to know and understand Christ by the OT who aren't Jews. Do you deny such people exist or aren't they important. Do you believe that every Gentile comes to Christ only by what is contained in the NT
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 1:45:37 PM
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gzusfrk
Posts: 43
Joined: 5/19/2009
Status: offline
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If your not doing then your not there,For God so loved the world that He gave. To serve one another is the basic duty of a christian,through Jesus. putting to death the deeds of the flesh is doing something. serving and helping others is doing something,if all you do is sit and think about Him and pray your only doing a part of the will of God.
< Message edited by gzusfrk -- 3/7/2010 1:57:42 PM >
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 1:48:57 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
The Christian life is not about "Doing" but about knowing and understanding our God and Savior as well as possible and that can't be done without the OT
Pleasse list some OT Passages (not repeated in the NT)without which a person cannot be a Christian?
quote:
You've not yet answered my question about those who come to know and understand Christ by the OT who aren't Jews.
Maybe I should have a list here also, as I have never met anyone nor heard of anyone, who came to be a Christian by the OT only.
quote:
Do you deny such people exist or aren't they important. Do you believe that every Gentile comes to Christ only by what is contained in the NT No I am sayng that the OT is not necessary to find Christ and live the Christian life.
And I am saying that no one has found Christ without the knowledge that is in the New Testament.
Jesus, when praying with and for his diciples said this;
(Joh 17:20) "I pray not only for them, but also for those who believe in me because of their message.
The words/message of the diciples, not the prophets, not the Torah, the words of the diciples (Apostles) which are contained in the New Testament.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 3/7/2010 1:56:00 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 2:02:17 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
quote:
Seriously, keeping in mind that I am pro OT, tell me, can a person recognize Jesus and become a follower without reading or knowing the OT?
I would say that Yes, SOME can. However, I would be that not all can (even leaving out practicing Jews). For some the OT is necessary thus it is necessary. In addition more than history there is so much more we can learn about God and his relationship with His people through the OT. Yes, it is possible to be saved and spend a life serving God without it but it's certainly only getting by with the minimum and not seeking to know Him as well as we can to ignore the OT.
I believe the OT is important. VERY important. Having only the NT would NOT be the ideal scenario.
That said, unless someone tells a person, of unless there is an Holy Spirit encounter, Christ crucified is NOT in the OT.
On the other hand, all needed to follow Christ and pursue righteousness and even OT insight is found in the NT.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 4:10:42 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7151
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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Corne and RCJ,
I am not trying to argue we don't need the NT. I am NOT saying a person can ncecessarily come to Christ without the NT.
quote:
Pleasse list some OT Passages (not repeated in the NT)without which a person cannot be a Christian?
You are missing the point of my argument. Yes, all the facts are there in the NT. However, for some individuals maybe the NT alone wasn't enough. I am sure there are some people who needed to see the NT WITH the OT to accept it as truth.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 4:38:38 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
Christ crucified is NOT in the OT.
Please study Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. "They pierced my hands and my feet". Therefore Philip preached the Gospel to the Ethiopian eunuch out of Isaiah 53.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 4:43:49 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Christ crucified is NOT in the OT.
Please study Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. "They pierced my hands and my feet". Therefore Philip preached the Gospel to the Ethiopian eunuch out of Isaiah 53.
I said in earlier post that the prophesies of it WERE.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 4:46:00 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Corne and RCJ,
I am not trying to argue we don't need the NT. I am NOT saying a person can ncecessarily come to Christ without the NT.
quote:
Pleasse list some OT Passages (not repeated in the NT)without which a person cannot be a Christian?
You are missing the point of my argument. Yes, all the facts are there in the NT. However, for some individuals maybe the NT alone wasn't enough. I am sure there are some people who needed to see the NT WITH the OT to accept it as truth.
I wasn't taking it as you were saying NT are OT wasn't needed. I'm just exploring the various angles of the question.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 6:10:52 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
You are missing the point of my argument. Yes, all the facts are there in the NT. However, for some individuals maybe the NT alone wasn't enough..
Well Christ seems to disagee with His statement about that we will believe on Him through the writings (words) of the Apostles (John 17:20)
quote:
I am sure there are some people who needed to see the NT WITH the OT to accept it as truth
Outside of Jews, I cannot see where that would be possible, for if someone believed in the OT (That it was the Truch), they would have already converted to Judaism.
And we are saved by Grace through Faith, not reasoning or an abundance of Older History Books.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 6:14:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Christ crucified is NOT in the OT.
Please study Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. "They pierced my hands and my feet". Therefore Philip preached the Gospel to the Ethiopian eunuch out of Isaiah 53.
Absolutely he did, but he also included information that is not found in the Old Testament concerning Jesus.
I have read Isaiah 53 and psalms 22 a few hundred times, but missed the part about Christ death saving those who believe in Him.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 7:24:15 PM
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mysteryofgospel
Posts: 252
Joined: 8/12/2009
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Rc,
So why didn't Paul write in Romans 10:17, So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing 'by the word of the new testament',
instead of what he actually wrote, 'hearing by the word of God?'
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 7:33:09 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
Status: offline
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Shall we review Ro 10? How will they hear? Perhaps from people with beautiful feet.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 8:01:19 PM
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prophet
Posts: 802
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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Without the OT, Paul will be without scriptures to write his epitles, the bereans will have nothing to check aganist.
No Ot, no prophecies of the coming messiah, no prohecies means ANYONE could have been the Christ. Imagine if Iasiah was not written?
methinks its a moot question.........no OT, means no NT 
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 8:04:44 PM
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prophet
Posts: 802
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Pleasse list some OT Passages (not repeated in the NT)without which a person cannot be a Christian?
Thanks
RC
Moot. Without them being in the OT, how can they be USED in the NT?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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