RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check???
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 6:28:29 PM
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GodandGuns
Posts: 1507
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: The Sound of Madness
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i want to see where the no drug tests is constitutional. can it work for military? save me the headache of 4 am operation golden flow's
_____________________________
FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A TASTE THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW.
The Medic, the unsung hero on every battlefield. It is impossible to imagine the mental/emotional trauma inside a Medic, and there is no triage for that.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 10:54:48 PM
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Kerrlaw
Posts: 5344
Joined: 5/24/2006
From: Big Orange Country
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I say the less government interference in our lives the better.
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That which does not kill us makes us fatter. ~ crankius
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 11:01:26 PM
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DNP
Posts: 796
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kerrlaw
I say the less government interference in our lives the better.
Amen to that!!!
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 11:10:33 PM
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relady
Posts: 634
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
An employer can also say you HAVE to use their product and use of a competitor can be grounds for termination.
An employer can state that women MUST wear pantyhose and heels EVERY DAY for work. To do othewise would be breech of contract.
Actually, I think both of these could be successfully challenged. I challenged an employer once because of my hairstyle. I won.
I don't think I would ever allow anyone to tell me I MUST use their products. Nope, not happening. OTOH some dress regulations can be enforced as long as they are not unduly restrictive and they are enforced with uniformity. Pantyhose and heels, though? Probably over the line.
In any case, Michigan is the only state so far to try the drug testing thing and it was challenged in court, Michigan lost both at trial and on appeal. The reason? It infringes upon 4th amendment rights. So that is the precendent thus far. I'd say drug testing of welfare recipients won't become common any time soon. Makes for an interesting discussion, but it's really a moot point at the present time.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 11:17:29 PM
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relady
Posts: 634
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
What about everyone on social security? Hahahaaaa, I'd like to see them try that one with the senior citizenry. Wanna talk about an uprising? That wouldn't last long, LOLOLOL.
quote:
This is what needs to be done with welfare recipients. AS A CONDITION OF RECEIVING THE BENEFIT. If you don't want to follow those rules, then go out and get a job. As has been stated, this has already been tried, been through the court system and found to be unconstitutional. So. Where do we go from here?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/10/2010 7:38:42 AM
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SteveSund
Posts: 211
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
An employer can also say you HAVE to use their product and use of a competitor can be grounds for termination.
An employer can state that women MUST wear pantyhose and heels EVERY DAY for work. To do othewise would be breech of contract.
Actually, I think both of these could be successfully challenged. I challenged an employer once because of my hairstyle. I won.
You won in court? What basis did you challenge them?
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
I don't think I would ever allow anyone to tell me I MUST use their products. Nope, not happening. OTOH some dress regulations can be enforced as long as they are not unduly restrictive and they are enforced with uniformity. Pantyhose and heels, though? Probably over the line.
Dress codes can be tricky, but they are still difficult to challenge. Some restrictions may constitute sex discrimination or religious discrimination. They must be uniformly applied and should be consistent with acceptable business practices. There is no requirement that says they can't be unduly restrictive. IIRC, California is the only state that says employers can't forbid women from wearing pants.
Firing someone for using a competitors product? I don't see any Constitutional challenge to that. If they make it a condition of employment and you violate it, then you are in breach of your employment contract.
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
In any case, Michigan is the only state so far to try the drug testing thing and it was challenged in court, Michigan lost both at trial and on appeal. The reason? It infringes upon 4th amendment rights. So that is the precendent thus far. I'd say drug testing of welfare recipients won't become common any time soon. Makes for an interesting discussion, but it's really a moot point at the present time.
Not completely. That case, Marchwinski v. Howard, was a 6-6 tie, so it may go the other way in other circuits. As of now, it is only precedent in the 6th Circuit and some other states are thinking of trying a similar plan. Personally, I think that drug testing would be a huge waste of taxpayer money and there is also a good chance that it would be struck down as unConstitutional. Maryland, New York, Louisiana, and Alabama had considered drug testing welfare recipients, but all decided against it when they discovered it was either too expensive or that there were more cost effective ways to get people off welfare and back to work.
The government already spends too much money on wasteful programs that sound good on paper. I am not interested in pushing for another one.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/10/2010 9:25:58 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
What about everyone on social security? Hahahaaaa, I'd like to see them try that one with the senior citizenry. Wanna talk about an uprising? That wouldn't last long, LOLOLOL.
Well this senior citizen would not be upset if SSI wanted drug test me or my wife.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/10/2010 10:17:36 AM
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macokjc
Posts: 498
Joined: 2/24/2008
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quote:
People have to take drug tests for work all the time. Bus drives, train conductors, pilots, grocery clerks, telemarketers school district employees, and the list goes on. I don't see what the difference is with being a welfare recipient. I am not even saying testing every week, I am saying an inital testing and then random tests just like many employees have to face.
But the difference is that employers do not test because they delight in catching their employees in illegal action. They test because drug use can hinder the ability to do one's job. Using drugs does not hinder one's ability to collect welfare, so you are comparing apples and oranges when you use that argument.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/10/2010 11:17:36 PM
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relady
Posts: 634
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
You won in court? What basis did you challenge them? Nope, I just called their bluff and told them I wasn't going to change my hairstyle. So I just challenged management and their demand that I cut my hair. I had a curly perm they didn't like. I knew it was stupid and illegal. And there was another lady, IN MANAGEMENT, at the same place with exactly the same hairstyle and they weren't harrassing her. I make it my business generally to know my rights and I knew they were just hassling me. However, had they forced the issue, I would have gotten a lawyer. No one, and I mean no one, tells me how to wear my hair. 
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 12:13:15 AM
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DNP
Posts: 796
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
You won in court? What basis did you challenge them? Nope, I just called their bluff and told them I wasn't going to change my hairstyle. So I just challenged management and their demand that I cut my hair. I had a curly perm they didn't like. I knew it was stupid and illegal. And there was another lady, IN MANAGEMENT, at the same place with exactly the same hairstyle and they weren't harrassing her. I make it my business generally to know my rights and I knew they were just hassling me. However, had they forced the issue, I would have gotten a lawyer. No one, and I mean no one, tells me how to wear my hair.
They were mad about a curly perm!!! I have a curly perm too but I was born with it  Some people just feel they have to control everybody. I am the opposite. I have dress/conduct codes at my companies but I do not get involved with peoples personal life.
I never drug tested an employee or job candidate because I judge them based on job performance and reviews. I have some employees that like to have a few drinks on the weekend. As long as they are all ready to work Monday morning it is none of my business what they do on their own time. That goes for all drugs, including alcohol. I know many of you may feel I should get involved with their personal lives more because I am paying them. The way I look at it, once I pay them for the work they perform I have no right tell them how to spend their money. Likewise they have no right to tell me how to spend mine or how I should worship.
Have I had employees who I knew use legal/illegal drugs on their own time? Sure I have. A few even had to be terminated for poor job performance. The vast majority of them had boundaries between work and their home life however. I also don’t base my hiring on the applicants nationality, religion or sexual orientation. I get the best person for the job even if don’t have the same beliefs and lifestyles I do. Maybe it is because I grew up in cities where I had to learn to deal with people who were very different than me, my family and fellow believers at my church.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 9:06:51 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kerrlaw
I say the less government interference in our lives the better.
Less intrusion would be better; let's just stop with the welfare.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 10:30:49 AM
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macokjc
Posts: 498
Joined: 2/24/2008
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quote:
Less intrusion would be better; let's just stop with the welfare.
Thanks
RC
But why welfare, why is it okay to be intrusive upon that particular social service? There are thousands of other ones that people abuse? AND - you are sadly mistaken if you think it will stop there. If they have the right to do that, then since EVERYBODY benefits someway or the other from government programs, what is next? Testing everybody who votes - testing everyone who drives - testing everyone who sends their kids to a public school? I shudder to think what could happen if somebody decided that since the government gave people money, they have a right to intrude in their personal lives.
It goes back to your attitude of "go out and get a job, bum." I would beseech you to do a little research, and talk to a few people actually on "welfare." Find out how they got there and what they are doing with their lives. Find out how you can help that single mom improve her life, instead of making it harder. All I see in this thread are self-righteous, judgmental people who probably have never walked a step in these people's shoes, much less a mile. People are upset about how it's NOT FAIR that a small minority abuse the system. You know what - it's not fair - it never will be, but be thankful that you are not them and move on.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 10:45:09 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: macokjc
It goes back to your attitude of "go out and get a job, bum." I would beseech you to do a little research, and talk to a few people actually on "welfare." Find out how they got there and what they are doing with their lives. Find out how you can help that single mom improve her life, instead of making it harder. All I see in this thread are self-righteous, judgmental people who probably have never walked a step in these people's shoes, much less a mile. People are upset about how it's NOT FAIR that a small minority abuse the system. You know what - it's not fair - it never will be, but be thankful that you are not them and move on.
oh I know many who are on welfare, some are congregants in my Church. But they are working hard to become self-sufficient, and to get off welfare, of which many of them have done. We do job training in data input and microsoft office suite at the Church for them at no charge.
Sadly I know many others who are the epitome of "Welfare moms", going on the 2nd or 3rd generation of living of public money (Read taxes), who do drugs, have a kid every 9 months and 7 days, turn down work that is offered to them, and who do not want to ever change. The example they set for their children is that they deserve to be taken care of. And that is sad.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 5:03:56 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17759
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quote:
We do job training in data input and microsoft office suite at the Church for them at no charge.
That is wonderful, RC!
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 6:58:31 PM
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Focusing
Posts: 2977
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Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check???
That, of course, would be assuming everyone is a drug addict.
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. . . when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 7:45:20 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 211
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
You won in court? What basis did you challenge them? Nope, I just called their bluff and told them I wasn't going to change my hairstyle. So I just challenged management and their demand that I cut my hair. I had a curly perm they didn't like. I knew it was stupid and illegal. And there was another lady, IN MANAGEMENT, at the same place with exactly the same hairstyle and they weren't harrassing her. I make it my business generally to know my rights and I knew they were just hassling me. However, had they forced the issue, I would have gotten a lawyer. No one, and I mean no one, tells me how to wear my hair.
Well, I am glad they backed off. What they did may have been petty or stupid, but it was not likely to be illegal. You would have to show some kind of discrimination based on gender, religion, or some other similar protected class. Based on the 'hair' cases I have read, you would have had a very difficult time winning.
My point is not to defend these policies, but rather to show that employers have a great deal of power in the employment relationship, unless you have a contract or a union job. Things like drug tests, morality clauses, dress codes, and rules of conduct are not illegal unless they are motivated by some kind of discrimination towards gender, age, national origin or religion.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 10:06:25 PM
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wretched1
Posts: 283
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The state of confusion.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
~~~
Things like drug tests, morality clauses, dress codes, and rules of conduct are not illegal unless they are motivated by some kind of discrimination towards gender, age, national origin or religion. Some local laws may prohibit most - if not all - drug testing of employees:
http://www.municode.com/content/4201/14140/HTML/ch033a.html
_____________________________
"You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body."
C.S. Lewis
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 10:34:50 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 211
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wretched1
quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
~~~
Things like drug tests, morality clauses, dress codes, and rules of conduct are not illegal unless they are motivated by some kind of discrimination towards gender, age, national origin or religion. Some local laws may prohibit most - if not all - drug testing of employees:
http://www.municode.com/content/4201/14140/HTML/ch033a.html
Excellent example. I am sure if employers push stupid policies there will be some municipalities that push back. There was some talk in MI after that insurance company fired the workers for smoking about having a law to prevent this type of action. It didn't go anywhere. If I had to guess, I would say that San Francisco is the exception, rather than the rule.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/11/2010 11:37:46 PM
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relady
Posts: 634
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
They were mad about a curly perm!!! Seriously. They actually told me my bangs were too long and my curly hair didn't look "professional" enough, LOL. I managed to not roll on the floor laughing. Then I just said when they made Mrs. So and So get her hair cut and straightened then I'd be happy to do so as well. That pretty much ended that.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/12/2010 2:44:12 PM
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GodandGuns
Posts: 1507
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: The Sound of Madness
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how many on here crying for this to be dropped wants to ride in an airplane with a pilot on coke? and that isnt the soft drink. or LSD or Mushroom tea where you see things
_____________________________
FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A TASTE THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW.
The Medic, the unsung hero on every battlefield. It is impossible to imagine the mental/emotional trauma inside a Medic, and there is no triage for that.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/12/2010 4:09:34 PM
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DNP
Posts: 796
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodandGuns
how many on here crying for this to be dropped wants to ride in an airplane with a pilot on coke? and that isnt the soft drink. or LSD or Mushroom tea where you see things
A pilot can't fly under the influence of many common legal drugs such as cough medicine, anti-depressants, sedatives, certain diet pills, etc. Pilots take may take them while they are not operating an aircraft. Based on your logic it should it be illegal for a pilot to ever drink alcohol even when not operating a plane, boat or car. The same with a surgeon too.
GodandGuns, to extend it even further, if you ever drink a beer or wine should we trust you to drive? I don't see what operating a plan or car has to do with drug testing welfare recipients.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/12/2010 7:26:42 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3528
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodandGuns
how many on here crying for this to be dropped wants to ride in an airplane with a pilot on coke?
Cocaine is a stimulant. It probably wouldn't hurt a pilot too much - may even help in some circumstances due to the sheer boredom they can experience.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/12/2010 11:48:49 PM
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wretched1
Posts: 283
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The state of confusion.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodandGuns
~~~
...wants to ride in an airplane with a pilot on... I'm ready for heaven :-)
_____________________________
"You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body."
C.S. Lewis
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