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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 5:04:04 PM
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Reform_Dave
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ORIGINAL: Saved34
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
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ORIGINAL: Saved34
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
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ORIGINAL: Saved34
Romans 6 is not some little rule or guideline to being saved, that is treated as a fact already passed. "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"
And if that peson does continue in sin, or goes back to living in sin?
Again it seems to me that you are condoning sin, or at least saying that continuing is sin is not a problem.
Thanks
RC
Have you as a Christian ever gone back to living in sin? All the years you have professed to be saved, have you ever "gone back" to living in sin?
No.
Have you?
Thanks
RC
I sure have. Not proud of it, but I'd be less than honest if I said I have not.
You would not be alone in that brother, we all have different levels of faith and bring forth different amounts of fruit and can indeed fall to sin, even for a season.
_____________________________
If the Gospel were more clearly and faithfully preached, fewer would profess to believe it.- A.W. Pink
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 5:22:26 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Would not reverting back for a gentile be going back to the former ways.
Yes.
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Which would be being a slave to sin, and not servant to Righteousness (Rom 6).
It would depend on the extent to which the Gentile reverted back. But true believers do not "revert back". They may fall into sin or unbelief, but can and will be restored if they repent and confess. Peter is a prime example when he betrayed the Lord. But the difference between Peter and Judas was one of day and night.
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And isn't one's lifestye indicitive of who they serve; flesh or God.
If a person habitually and continually sins, then they were not saved to begin with. So they go back to square one -- repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. But we are not talking about sinners. Only saints who are saved by grace. Sinners are lost.
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Christ said; (Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
These people were false professors, not true possessors. Therefore "Lord", "Lord" meant nothing and they would be condemned to Hell unless they repented.
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And that would be apostasy.
False professors can indeed become apostate, as witnessed by theological liberals.
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Or do you conider that only Jews could become apostates.
Both Jews and Gentiles can become apostates, but these apostates were never saved by grace to begin with. Peter calls them "dogs" and "pigs" instead of "sheep".
We are talking about sheep, but you always like to bring in the goats. There is a difference. RC, you've got to let go of the goats and focus on the sheep. And also come out of the twighlight zone. We are either in the Kingdom of Light or in the Kingdom of Darkness.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 6:43:31 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Would not reverting back for a gentile be going back to the former ways.
Yes.
quote:
Which would be being a slave to sin, and not servant to Righteousness (Rom 6).
It would depend on the extent to which the Gentile reverted back. But true believers do not "revert back". They may fall into sin or unbelief, but can and will be restored if they repent and confess. Peter is a prime example when he betrayed the Lord. But the difference between Peter and Judas was one of day and night.
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And isn't one's lifestye indicitive of who they serve; flesh or God.
If a person habitually and continually sins, then they were not saved to begin with. So they go back to square one -- repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. But we are not talking about sinners. Only saints who are saved by grace. Sinners are lost.
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Christ said; (Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
These people were false professors, not true possessors. Therefore "Lord", "Lord" meant nothing and they would be condemned to Hell unless they repented.
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And that would be apostasy.
False professors can indeed become apostate, as witnessed by theological liberals.
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Or do you conider that only Jews could become apostates.
Both Jews and Gentiles can become apostates, but these apostates were never saved by grace to begin with. Peter calls them "dogs" and "pigs" instead of "sheep".
Thank you for your detailed answers Ezra.
How would you counsel a person as to whether they are a Saint, or just think they are a Saint, but really are not.
This is a problem I see with teaching what is being espoused on this thread(Not that salvation is offered by Grace and Grace alone, and obtained by Faith) but the absolute security by Grace. I ask you to please look at the following.
A person gets saved, repented, confessed, water baptized, etc.; all well and good so far. They seemingly change and start to serve God. They are told every week from the pulpit that they are secure and nothing can ever interfere with that.
But the person reverts back to the former self (or the same self -I am not speaking to losing one's salvation here).and becomes apostate (just like they were.
So we agree that they were never really saved in the first place.
The problem I see is that he was told week after week after week that he was saved and absolutely secure; now he is told that he never was saved nor secure. It is very posssible to end up preaching security to a congregation full of lost folks. Do you not see something wrong with that?
What I teach is "are you saved today", don't rely on what you thought yesterday, nor what might happen tomorrow, but examine yourself to determine if you are saved today(2 Corinthians 13:5). Are you living a sinning lifesyle, or is Romans 12:1-2 operating in your life, are you keeping the commands of God (John 14:15), are you doing what Christ said (Luke 6:46), if your were brought before the judgment of Matthew 25 would Christ declare you a sheep or a goat.
I do not teach Good Works to keep salvation, but as an idicator of whether one is really saved or not.
I strongly believe what John said about if one is continuing (living in) sin then they are not of God, and it seems a shame to keep telling someone they are of God, when they may not be.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 6:51:09 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
I understand you guys are just using a play upon words, but saying you have never sinned or have never failed God is simply not biblical or being very honest. There is no shame in falling on the mercy of our Lord. God desires truth in the inward parts.
I never said I had not sinned since salvation, I answered your question truthfully. your question was;
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Have you as a Christian ever gone back to living in sin?
And I have not since salvation gone back to living is sin.
I sadly have sinned on rare occasions, followed by deep sorrow, repentance, and seeking forgiveness from God through Christ.
I do believe what John writes;
(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
The Word say "IF" any man sins, not "WHEN", sin should be the rarity and not the regular (living in sin).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 10:46:11 PM
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Ezra
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The problem I see is that he was told week after week after week that he was saved and absolutely secure; now he is told that he never was saved nor secure. It is very posssible to end up preaching security to a congregation full of lost folks. Do you not see something wrong with that?
I definitely see something wrong with preaching eternal security but omitting the necessity of the sanctification of the believer. This also comes down to the fact that too many churches are not systematically helping to disciple new Christians with one-on-one discipling. Pastors are not "shepherding". They have generally become paid preachers.
The apostle John gives us the marks of a true Christian in 1 John and every believer needs to honestly answer these questions:
1. Am I having fellowship with God? (1 Jn. 1:6a)
2. Am I walking in "darkness" or in "light" at this moment? (1 Jn. 1:6b)
3. Am I having fellowship with other believers? (1 Jn. 1:7)
4. Am I acknowledging my sins to God daily? (1 Jn.1:8)
5. Am I confessing my sins to God daily? (1 Jn. 1:9)
6. Am I keeping Christ's commandments daily ? (1 Jn. 2:3)
7. Am I "walking" as Christ walked daily? (1 Jn. 2:6)
8. Am I loving my brothers and sisters as Christ loves them? (1 Jn. 2:10)
9. Am I overcoming the Wicked One? (1 Jn. 2:13)
10. Am I loving the world more than I love God? (1 Jn. 2:15)
11. Am I allowing the three lusts to control me? (1 Jn. 2:16)
12. Am I allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me all things? (1 Jn. 2:27)
Anyone who cannot answer these questions affirmatively or negatively as required, or confess his/her failings to God daily is not saved.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 11:17:02 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
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ORIGINAL: Saved34
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
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ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Romans 6 is not some little rule or guideline to being saved, that is treated as a fact already passed. "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"
And if that peson does continue in sin, or goes back to living in sin?
Again it seems to me that you are condoning sin, or at least saying that continuing is sin is not a problem.
Thanks
RC
Have you as a Christian ever gone back to living in sin? All the years you have professed to be saved, have you ever "gone back" to living in sin?
No.
Have you?
Thanks
RC
I sure have. Not proud of it, but I'd be less than honest if I said I have not.
You would not be alone in that brother, we all have different levels of faith and bring forth different amounts of fruit and can indeed fall to sin, even for a season.
Lessons learned,brother. We may occasionally lose some of the battles but our war is already won. My Pastor taught this morning on running this Christian race with patience.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 11:25:09 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
This is a problem I see with teaching what is being espoused on this thread(Not that salvation is offered by Grace and Grace alone, and obtained by Faith) but the absolute security by Grace There is absolute security in grace. That is why it is by grace through faith that the promise might be sure. No matter if it seems to men to teach a lifestyle of lasciviousness, in reality grace does the exact opposite. It actually empowers the sinner to live right, it compels the heart to serve God . Works will never be a sure ground of salvation. It'll sink every time. The heart must settle on Christ alone in order to have full peace with God. A sinners heart must be established on the Gospel of grace.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 8:43:40 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
The problem I see is that he was told week after week after week that he was saved and absolutely secure; now he is told that he never was saved nor secure. It is very posssible to end up preaching security to a congregation full of lost folks. Do you not see something wrong with that?
I definitely see something wrong with preaching eternal security but omitting the necessity of the sanctification of the believer. This also comes down to the fact that too many churches are not systematically helping to disciple new Christians with one-on-one discipling. Pastors are not "shepherding". They have generally become paid preachers.
The apostle John gives us the marks of a true Christian in 1 John and every believer needs to honestly answer these questions:
1. Am I having fellowship with God? (1 Jn. 1:6a)
2. Am I walking in "darkness" or in "light" at this moment? (1 Jn. 1:6b)
3. Am I having fellowship with other believers? (1 Jn. 1:7)
4. Am I acknowledging my sins to God daily? (1 Jn.1:8)
5. Am I confessing my sins to God daily? (1 Jn. 1:9)
6. Am I keeping Christ's commandments daily ? (1 Jn. 2:3)
7. Am I "walking" as Christ walked daily? (1 Jn. 2:6)
8. Am I loving my brothers and sisters as Christ loves them? (1 Jn. 2:10)
9. Am I overcoming the Wicked One? (1 Jn. 2:13)
10. Am I loving the world more than I love God? (1 Jn. 2:15)
11. Am I allowing the three lusts to control me? (1 Jn. 2:16)
12. Am I allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me all things? (1 Jn. 2:27)
Anyone who cannot answer these questions affirmatively or negatively as required, or confess his/her failings to God daily is not saved.
I agee
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 8:48:12 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Lessons learned,brother. We may occasionally lose some of the battles but our war is already won. My Pastor taught this morning on running this Christian race with patience.
Lessons learned IF the person is saved, that really is the question isn't it; is the person who keeps reverting back to sin saved or not?
How would you assure somone who is living in sin that they are saved?
And how would you know they are saved to explain this to them if they are living in sin?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 11:13:26 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Lessons learned,brother. We may occasionally lose some of the battles but our war is already won. My Pastor taught this morning on running this Christian race with patience.
Lessons learned IF the person is saved, that really is the question isn't it; is the person who keeps reverting back to sin saved or not?
How would you assure somone who is living in sin that they are saved?
And how would you know they are saved to explain this to them if they are living in sin?
Thanks
RC
I cannot assure any man as to whether he is saved or not(Only they know in their heart in whom they have believed). The problem sometimes come from people believing something instead of someone which is the Living Christ.Now "someone living in sin" is a difficult question for me to answer. If a man or woman is living in rank sin and believing that grace makes it alright, they were never touched by God's saving grace. There is the experience of the renewed man who finds for the first time that he still has to contend with his old fleshly nature. He does things that he hates, he loves God and desires with all his heart to serve him. He places himself under a bondage which he cannot achieve because the principle of the flesh is stronger than his desire to serve God. Only when that man rests and rely on his complete Justification in Christ can he have victory over the flesh. Not living in the condemnation of the law works, but in a newness of freedom as being brought nigh to God. Risen with Christ as the means of victory.
Your question deals with the quality or reality of faith. I must rely on God's word above experience. If they have placed their trust in Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work for them, they shall be saved. The parable of the seed sower deals with why some men do not get genuine saving faith. God does not just give us a clean slate and say "don't mess this one up". He births us in a completely New Creation. In Adam, all died whether they were good, bad, honorable,wicked,because of his sin he doomed all those in him. In Christ (those who have accepted him) all are made Righteous because of him. Failures, sins, defeats in this life cannot change that. Christ is the federal head of the new creation. Again, assurance is only found in Christ. If a man confess with his mouth, the Lord Jesus, and believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead, he shall be saved. That is on the authority of God's word.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 11:24:40 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Your question deals with the quality or reality of faith. I must rely on God's word above experience. If they have placed their trust in Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work for them, they shall be saved. The parable of the seed sower deals with why some men do not get genuine saving faith. God does not just give us a clean slate and say "don't mess this one up". He births us in a completely New Creation. In Adam, all died whether they were good, bad, honorable,wicked,because of his sin he doomed all those in him. In Christ (those who have accepted him) all are made Righteous because of him. Failures, sins, defeats in this life cannot change that. Christ is the federal head of the new creation. Again, assurance is only found in Christ. If a man confess with his mouth, the Lord Jesus, and believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead, he shall be saved. That is on the authority of God's word.
If one is a Church leader and has to answer for the souls of those entrusted to him (Hebrews 13:17) then they cannot dance around the issues of whether one is saved or just thinks they are saved.
Have they placed their trust in Christ, or are they confused?
If we consistantly tell someone who is confused (truly feel they are saved, but are not - Matther 7:21-23) that they are eternally secure; then we are condemning them to etrenal death and will have to give account of that soul.
This is what I am asking you, if you are a minister; how do you handle a person who claims that they are a Christian but lives a lifestyle of sin (continues in sin - 1 John 3:8); do you tell them they are secure, or do you tell them to examine themselves (2 Cor 13:5) to know if they are saved?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 11:33:19 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I like the way one theologian that I read put it: "We are saved by grace through faith for good works when we are baptized."
I liked the way I heard one theologian put it: A faith that is fails at the finish was faulty from the first.
That theologian, apparently, wasn't aware of the book of Hebrews, the entire premise of which, is that people not to return to the pre-salvation lifestyles. Apparently the writer of Hebrews thought it possible for his audience's faith to fail even though he didn't consider their faith faulty to begin with.
Interesting, GD, that you see loop-holes where I see God's assurance and His unslippery grasp on my redeemed soul.
Hebrews played a significant part in changing my theological slant away from hope-so salvation to one of know-so confidence in God's ability to keep by grace that which He started by grace. Yet, so many see Hebrews as proof of the opposite.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 11:44:01 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
If one is a Church leader and has to answer for the souls of those entrusted to him (Hebrews 13:17) then they cannot dance around the issues of whether one is saved or just thinks they are saved. Frankly ,RC, you will never genuinely know who is truly saved who is truly not saved. Your Job as a minister is to preach the Gospel, to feed the flock. The Holy Spirit will reprove and convict the hearts if the words you preach are pure. Only God knows a man's heart and if he or she has genuinely accepted him. Being a professional fruit watcher will only carry you so far. If you cry loud and spare not, God will do the sugical work necessary for conviction.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 11:47:59 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
If we consistantly tell someone who is confused (truly feel they are saved, but are not - Matther 7:21-23) that they are eternally secure; then we are condemning them to etrenal death and will have to give account of that soul.
Again, I must go back to the parable of the seed sower. If a man has questions about his salvation that is maybe the Holy Spirit drawing him into true conversion. There are many people who think they are saved because they were baptized as a baby, they joined the church, they were always saved (as if they were not born in Adam), they believe they are saved by keeping the law, they are saved by many different avenues. That is when the man of God knows for sure that one is definitely not saved. Then the true way to salvation should be presented.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 12:01:32 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Again, I must go back to the parable of the seed sower. If a man has questions about his salvation that is maybe the Holy Spirit drawing him into true conversion. There are many people who think they are saved because they were baptized as a baby, they joined the church, they were always saved (as if they were not born in Adam), they believe they are saved by keeping the law, they are saved by many different avenues. That is when the man of God knows for sure that one is definitely not saved. Then the true way to salvation should be presented.
But if what that person hears from the pulpit every week is that you are secure and nothing will change that, along with sin really doesn't matter because of Grace; what questions will they have?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 12:01:39 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
But if what that person hears from the pulpit every week is that you are secure and nothing will change that, along with sin really doesn't matter because of Grace; what questions will they have?
FWIW, I've heard far more sermons on how to biblically know if you are saved in my current SBC than I ever heard in my former Free Will Baptist denomination. In fact, I heard the strongest message here that I've ever heard about people who have a false sense of security from Bailey Smith's sermon on "Are You Wheat or Tare?"
For some reason, the FWB denomination that believed I could forfeit my salvation never preached on how I could know for sure that I had been saved. So, like a lot of members, I was erroneously hoping my saying the "sinner's prayer" and getting baptized and attending church and reading the Bible and giving and not drinking and not gambling and the like all somehow secured my salvation.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 12:29:05 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Again, I must go back to the parable of the seed sower. If a man has questions about his salvation that is maybe the Holy Spirit drawing him into true conversion. There are many people who think they are saved because they were baptized as a baby, they joined the church, they were always saved (as if they were not born in Adam), they believe they are saved by keeping the law, they are saved by many different avenues. That is when the man of God knows for sure that one is definitely not saved. Then the true way to salvation should be presented.
But if what that person hears from the pulpit every week is that you are secure and nothing will change that, along with sin really doesn't matter because of Grace; what questions will they have?
Thanks
RC
I can only speak from experience. I was once a religionist but I did not have peace with God. I knew something was wrong. An unsaved man will never have assurance because I believe that is an act of God where the Holy Spirit reassures our spirit that we are indeed sons of God. Any man who teaches that it's alright to sin because of grace is not God's man. The man who teaches that it is all of God's grace is God's man. There is a big difference. Only the Gospel can shed light on a darkened heart, a heart of religion but not a heart that has turned to living faith in Christ. Many people believe the historical facts about our Lord but not he himself. That is not found in good works, because good works proceed from living faith. It is found in a person. It's so simple yet the devil makes it seem so hard.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 1:05:30 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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Back to the topic;
I do believe with all that is within me that Salvation is by Grace through faith in accordance with;
(Eph 2:8-10) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 8:34:40 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
But if what that person hears from the pulpit every week is that you are secure and nothing will change that, along with sin really doesn't matter because of Grace; what questions will they have?
This sounds like a little bit of exaggeration, since no true evangelical preacher would say "sin really doesn't matter". Are you thinking of liberal apostates who don't even believe the Gospel, or perhaps Emergent Church types?
BTW those people who hear half the Gospel have a duty and obligation to search the Scriptures for themselves. Therefore they are without excuse.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/22/2010 9:57:36 PM
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Reform_Dave
Posts: 897
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From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
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quote:
This is what I am asking you, if you are a minister; how do you handle a person who claims that they are a Christian but lives a lifestyle of sin (continues in sin - 1 John 3:8); do you tell them they are secure, or do you tell them to examine themselves (2 Cor 13:5) to know if they are saved?
What you do with a person who is living in sin is just what the Bible prescribes, discipline them according to the pattern set down in Matthew.
quote:
But if what that person hears from the pulpit every week is that you are secure and nothing will change that, along with sin really doesn't matter because of Grace; what questions will they have?
If a person believes that sin doesn't matter because of grace then there would be cause to believe they may not be saved, and i dont believe anybody here has that attitude. Sin is deadly serious to God, and a true christian will understand that, and a true christian will mourn over the sins they commit. Admitting that christians can and do commit sins (not to be confused with an ongoing unrepentant unbroken lifestyle of sinning) is not the same as saying we can live any old way we want because God will forgive us anyway. The Bible is clear about the fact we have sin, we can fall to it, but that we have an advocate in Christ and there is restoration.
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If the Gospel were more clearly and faithfully preached, fewer would profess to believe it.- A.W. Pink
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 9:58:48 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
This sounds like a little bit of exaggeration, since no true evangelical preacher would say "sin really doesn't matter". Are you thinking of liberal apostates who don't even believe the Gospel, or perhaps Emergent Church types?
No, not an exaggeration, one of the churches and Pastors I am thinking of has even stated that "God's grace covers all sin, so don't consider sin, consider grace. You can be in the arms of adultery, die of a heart attack, and wake up in the arms of Jesus". This is not some backwooks independent baptist, but a large Church in a major denomination.
Another Pastor from the same denomination preached last summer at his Church's VBS graduation when the Church was full of the lost parents of the neighborhood kids, "Just repeat this prayer after me and you will be saved, you will go to Heaven, and it matters not what you do for you will be secure".
Now I certainly do not believe that all 5th point Calvinist teach grace and OSAS in this manner, but many do, and many others imply that sin does not matter with statements such as, "When you sin this week, it is OK, for God's Grace covers your every step because you are secure".
quote:
BTW those people who hear half the Gospel have a duty and obligation to search the Scriptures for themselves. Therefore they are without excuse.
you are correct, but when the Pastor tells a Church full of lost folks that they are saved and secure; that is a major problem.
As I said my stance on Grace and Salvation is;
(Eph 2:8-10) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
But each and every one of us, you, me, any and every one of us who considers themselves a Believer, should everyday;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 10:23:04 AM
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jjbird
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So the original post is essentially saying you are saved by mental assent alone?
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 10:31:36 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5594
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
So the original post is essentially saying you are saved by mental assent alone?
What part of "God's legal declaration" or "God must declare" means "we are saved by mental assent alone". Those God-based phrases actually define salvation by grace, jj!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 11:01:19 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 825
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
So the original post is essentially saying you are saved by mental assent alone?
What part of "God's legal declaration" or "God must declare" means "we are saved by mental assent alone". Those God-based phrases actually define salvation by grace, jj!
I am sorry my friend I don't understand your point.
Grace in the NT has never ruled out obedience.
The contrast is between faith in Christ or faith in reliance of the law of Moses. That is the context of Paul's argument.
Paul has never argued that grace is some how excluding obedience.
Besides the bible is explicit in saying that salvation is given to those who obey and that the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 11:30:19 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I am sorry my friend I don't understand your point. Frankly, I don't understand your question. I see not one inkling of being saved "by mental assent alone" in the OP!
quote:
Grace in the NT has never ruled out obedience. Pithy, but backwards, jj. Grace produces obedience!
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Besides the bible is explicit in saying that salvation is given to those who obey and that the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey. Chapter and verse, please! My Bible explicitly states that the grace of God saves us when we appropriate it by faith in Christ. Only then are we empowered to obey God's Will.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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