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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Why? Jesus told us why: "It has been given to you to understand, but it has not been given to them to understand". He said that as an answer to the question, "Why do you speak in parables?" Well, think about it... parables are using figurative language and figurative scenarios to teach a lesson. It is a commonly used teaching method. You relate the subject to something the people understand, then you link it to the truth you're trying to describe. I like cars, so if someone wants to explain something to me, they can associate it with cars to help me understand it. Jesus is doing the same thing with parables, but He says the people have closed their hearts and ears and eyes so that they cannot understand the truth in the parables.

Prophecies are the same way. Those are given to God's people to understand, HOWEVER, God told Daniel to "seal up" the prophecies till the time of the end. There's a book called Daniel is Out of Order by Skolfield. Anyone can figure this out on their own, though. If you look through the order of kings in history, you'll find that Daniel's use of the kings names to date the book is out of order. You'll see one king in chapter 9, a new king in chapter then, and then the same king in chapter 9 again. In Daniel is Out of Order, Skolfield puts it into Chronological order, making the book make a bit more sense.

Also, God tells us flat out in Nubmers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 that when He prophesies, He gives a day for a year. And then he prophesies in both those passages with days and says they equal years. He continues this with Daniel's 70 weeks of years. And God never changes this rule that a day equals a year. Thus, we need to stick to it. That is one of the important rules of Hermeneutic study. Besides, as I showed you, all of the numerical prophecies of Daniel have come to pass exactly as they were prophesied, and the math works out perfectly. There is no need to argue the point, really, or try to disprove it. It's a statistical impossibility to be coincidence. It must be God's doing.

Hi Brian,
It might be true that teaching somebody might be better done in parables if they are the subject. However that is not the reason Jesus did it, the Bible says he did it so the people would not understand and this was a fulfillment of OT prophecy about the Messiah. . This is backed up by a few instances where Jesus is said to explain the meanings of the parables to them when they were in private. If you can misunderstand that then it is also possible to misunderstand other things in the Bible also.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
In regard to the parables, keep in mind that just because the twelve disciples may not have understood a parable does not mean that other people listening to it didn't understand it as well. Jesus interpreted the parables to His disciples in private, sure. But to assume that no one would understand them is not necessarily the case. However, I will say this: I have a feeling no one at all understood the parables until after the Holy Spirit came to believers upon their being born again. I would imagine that when that happened, they suddenly understood the parables perfectly. I know when I was born again and the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, I had a lot more knowledge of God and of right and wrong than I had before, and it happened in a split second at the point I was saved. All of this is just a possibility, is all...

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Hmmm.... A bit combative aren't we? I'll give you Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 because they were SPECIFICALLY given by God to be 1 day = 1 year formulas FOR THOSE INDIVIDUAL CASES! However, I will NOT give you Dani'el's 70 "SEVENS!" They are groups of seven years; they are NOT "WEEKS!" And, ONLY if one ASSUMES them first to be "weeks" could one believe that the days of those weeks could be equated to years! To show you what I mean in outline form:
It's not...
A. Weeks
A.1. Days
A.2. Years

It's...
A. SEVENS
A.1. Weeks
A.1.a. Weekdays
A.1.b. Shabbat
B.1. Sabbatical year cycle
B.1.a. Normal years
B.1.b. Sabbatical year

Thus, it's not that "sevens = weeks" but that "weeks" ARE A SUBSET OF "sevens." Understand? More importantly, however, one must understand two things: First, Dani'el is not a prophet, and second, nowhere in the passage does it specifically say that 1 day = 1 year, as it did in the previous two passages. IT'S WRONG TO CONCLUDE THAT ALL PROPHETIC OCCURRENCES OF "DAYS" SHOULD BE INTERPRETED AS "YEARS!"

Nothing combative about this. You have completely skipped over important things and discounted them without disproving them in any way whatsoever.

I believe the Jews will disagree with you about Daniel not being a prophet... And the prophecies he wrote about would tend to disagree with you too. And hermeneutic study disagrees with you about all prophetic days equalling years.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

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Boy, that's a "strawman hypothesis" if I EVER heard one! You're putting words in my mouth, now. I NEVER said anything about "seven years of creation!" To be honest, I'm GLAD that you have some form of restriction on your "day = year" theory, or the sky's the limit! However, IMO, that's not enough. Look, I'm a mathematician. Have been since before I started programming. So, I know that anyone with enough motivation can make the numbers say anything they want to say. It's obvious that some work was involved in the "prophecies/events" calculations you've made. However, to be honest, how long did it take you (or whoever first came out with the calculations) to come to these particular events? How many miscalculations were made before you (or whomever) stumbled on events that worked? What truly made you (or whomever) choose particular events for start points and end points of the time line segments that represent these time periods? Was it the events themselves or was it actually the numbers first? If it was the numbers first, then, YOU'RE RIGHT! It WOULD be statistically impossible to be coincidental because it was coincidental BY DESIGN!

See, I KNOW how these things work! I've had to deal with things like "88 Reasons Why The Rapture Could Be In 1988" and "On Borrowed Time: The Bible Dates of The 70th Week of Daniel, Armageddon, The Millennium" both by Edger C. Whisenant, "The Rapture" by Hal Lindsey, "The Beast of Revelation: Myth, Metaphor or Soon-Coming Reality?" by John H. Ogwyn, all the Chick Publications, and the Y2K crazies. It's tapered off a little after 2000, but I remember a 2004 theory, a 2008 theory, and a 2010 theory, since then, and now we're awaiting the results of the 2012 theory! What can I say? Call me skeptical.

OMG - you're a mathematician?? I'm sorry, but I don't believe that for a second. If you really were a mathematician, you would see the statistical impossibility in these prophecies. Also, you would understand that I could not have made up these events which were used for these prophecies! I challenge you to go look up the most agreed-upon dates in history for the events I listed for these prophecies and you will find every one of them to be the dates on which most historians agree they happened.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
The way the originator of this prophetic interpretation figured out on which dates the prophecies start and end are by the events spoken of in each prophecy. It's not rocket science. If you had done any sincere reading and study on this, you would've seen that immediately. But all you care about is being correct and trying to discredit what I've laid out. Daniel 12:11 clearly says "From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished" There's our starting point. In Daniel's time, the daily sacrifice was taken away in 583 BC, 3 years after the temple was destroyed. I even showed a verse which occurs seven months after the temple had been destroyed where priests were giving sacrifices on the temple mount just to prove that they were still giving sacrifices after the temple was destroyed. In 583 BC, all of the Jews were taken into captivity to Babylon and were not allowed to go back to the temple mount to give sacrifices. That was the end of the daily sacrifice for quite some time. I didn't make that up. The prophecy says it itself.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Then, the prophecy states that an abomination of desolation will be set up. Jesus explains more about this abomination of desolation in Matthew 24. So, we take 583 BC and add the 1271.5 solar years (1290 Hebrew years) to it and we get 688.5 AD. We know that a million Jews were slaughtered that year and the rest run out of Israel and the Dome of the Rock had just begun building on the outer court of the temple mount (the abomination of desolation was being built on a wing of the temple mount, just as the original hebrew states). I have given you all of this information in my original post, and yet you completely gloss over it like it's fabricated by me! One, I didn't come up with this stuff, and two, I cannot make up historical events and just throw in these numerical prophecies to come up with these calculations.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
I'm sorry, but there's no way you're a mathematician or you would've immediately seen my math and understood that I could not have adjusted the calculations! I did the math exactly as a historial does when tracking things like this through history. I'll show you the math again, Mr. Mathematician!

If I want to turn 360 day Hebrew years into 365.24 day solar years, I have to divide 360 by 365.24, right? Of course.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
360 divided by 365.24 = .9857

.9857 is our conversion factor to turn Hebrew years into solar years.

Now, 1,290 Hebrew years multiplied by .9857 equals 1,271.5 solar years.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Any mathematician will immediately say, "There's nothing you can manipulate about those numbers. Those calculations are the required calculations to figure out this conversion of years." But not you. You said, "Oh, you must have messed with the calculations to make them fit.”

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Well, sorry, but I know how the author came up with these calculations. He took 583 BC and added 1271.5 solar years to it and came out to 688.5 AD and then said, "Alright, let me see what happened that year in history." That's when he found the Dome of the Rock being build and the Jews being slaughtered and run out of Israel. There was absolutely no manipulation to the numbers at all.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
The math is perfect. Do the math before you start accusing people of fraud. ALL of the calculations are perfect and unaltered, and all of the events spoken of in the prophecies define the beginning and end points of these prophecies. If you had read my post in full, you would know that. But you've done absolutely no sincere research into this prophetic interpretation, and that is why you completely fail at understanding it, disproving it and debating it.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
…

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Again, you're sticking words in my mouth! (I truly despise that practice!) I've never said, "I'm not going to debate you anymore." (Are you actually reading what I wrote?!) I'll debate you on this "til the cows come home!" I know you're not right in using a 360-day year! No one is! However, I'll give you this: You probably had examples of other Christians using this form of insanity and just picked up on it. So, in that way, it's not all your fault; however, once one knows the truth, it becomes one's fault if he/she continues to propagate nonsense.

Your post to me said you were not going to respond to my posts on this topic anymore. So you essentially said you weren't going to debate the topic anymore. I didn't put any words in your mouth. I just restated what you said in a different way. Stop trying to twist things around.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
And you are absolutely incorrect about the 360 day year. Do your research and stop calling my research incorrect. I know all about the calendar the Hebrews used to use and the one they use today. You're the one that needs to do some research. Find me some sources that show you're correct. The research will be good for you.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
And again, you still have not explained how all of the dates come out perfectly to the years of the events the prophecies describe happening! I've disproven all of your arguments thus far. Please answer my questions now.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

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What you mean is, "no mather how I debate your interpretation, nothing is going to change your mind," and that's fine. You can believe what you want to believe; you will anyway. I will give you a couple of examples, but not in THIS post. It will take some time, although less time to disprove than it took to "prove" them in the first place. Try not to be so defensive; sure they took work, but they are just numbers after all. "Willingly ignorant"? "You being right is more important than you knowing the truth"? "You are too prideful"? These are "ad hominem" fallacies of logic. If you can't attack the problem, you attack the person. That's NOT a good way to win an argument. Thank you for not meaning any disrespect, however.

First of all, I did attack the problem, and quite well. I've corrected all of your inaccurate statements thus far and defended this interpretation perfectly well. You are the one that's not attacking the problem. You have made claims that I must have altered the calculations or configured things to come out the way I wanted them, and yet you haven't shown me any mathematical data to prove that! So they're just false accusations! You've never given a reason why the numerical prophecies come out to the exact years on which they are supposed to. You continue to say I'm wrong, but you fail to show it! I didn't attack you in any way. All of the statements I made about you are factual statements. A prideful person is one who refuses to believe someone else is right and they're wrong. And so they do what they can to explain away the other person, because they're so certain they're right. That is incredibly arrogant. If you were not threatened by the interpretation I put forth, you would have actually made an effort to learn what it says, learn if the historical dates are accurate and if the math checks out and if anything was manipulated incorrectly. You did none of those things. You made no attempt to actually disprove the interpretation. Instead, all you did was make baseless accusations to make it appear as if I'm wrong and you're right. Well, sorry... that's not the way it works in academia. If you want to debate with the scholars, you need to show proof of your claims. I came to the table with all of my facts in order and I debated it exactly as I should have and I have, so far, disproven all of your baseless accusations. You, on the other hand, have stuck with your baseless accusations, and shown no facts to disprove the interpretation whatsoever. You are failing miserably at defending your interpretation and disproving mine.

Do some honest research on my interpretation, the mathematics, and the dates. If there is a problem, anyone with half a brain can find it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure these simple calculations out! This is all very easy stuff. So if you're a mathematician, it should be a cake-walk.

Please, by all means, prove me wrong if you're so sure you're right. Let's see your proof! Show me the bad math or the false dates or something that invalidates my interpretation! Show me SOMETHING that's legitimate instead of just repeating, "you're wrong".

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Either your reading comprehension is exceptionally low, or you did not read my posts at all which I recommended you read. You clearly haven't a clue what I was explaining in my previous posts concerning the 70 weeks and the two witnesses.

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The two witnesses are revealed right there in Revelation 11. It says the two witnesses are the two lampstands and two olive trees before the throne of the Lord of the earth. Revelation 1:20 says lampstands represent churches, and Paul explains in Romans how the native Olive tree is the Jews and the wild olive tree is the Gentile (Christian) church. Therefore, the two witnesses are the Jewish church and the Christian church. Revelation 11 tells us that quite clearly. If you had read my other posts, I explain how the two witnesses prophesied exactly 1,260 years as they were prophesied to do. As for the 3 1/2 years, yes, the two witnesses laid in the streets dead for 3 1/2 years. I'll explain.

Remember, the Hebrew calendar had 360 day years. So, multiply 3.5 years by 360 days and what do you get? 1260 days in 3 1/2 years. Each day is a year. So that's 1,260 years, just like the prophecy says.

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Now, take 688.5 AD. 688.5 AD is when 1 million Jews were slaughtered in Israel by the Muslims and the rest were run out of Israel. The Christians knew this was coming, because Jesus warned them. In Matt 24, Jesus tells the Christians, "When you see the Abomination of Desolation standing on the holy place (the temple mount)... flee Judea, for then will be great tribulation..." So, when the Christians saw the Dome of the Rock being built on the temple mount, they got the heck out of Israel as quickly as they could. The Jews, however, did not have this prophecy, and so they stayed and were slaughtered. That was the beginning of their great tribulation (the 3 1/2 days they lie dead in the streets).

Now, in Revelation 11, we know it's talking about Muslim rulership of the temple mount, because it says to measure the temple, but not its outer courts, because they will be trodden down by the Gentiles (the Muslims, in this case) for 42 months. So, from the time of the building of the Dome of the Rock (688.5 AD) to the time the Jews regain control of the temple mount will be 42 months of years. Let's do the math:

First, how many days are in a 365.24 day year? 365.24 divided by 12 = 30.44 days per month. Now, multiply 42 months by 30.44 days and you get 1278.5 days. Each day equals a year so that's 1278.5 years. So the prophecy says the Gentiles will rule the temple mount for 1278.5 years, right? Let's see if that works out properly:

688.5 AD + 1278.5 years = 1967 AD (that's the year Israel took back Jerusalem and the temple mount in the famous Six Day War). So the prophecy is dead on accurate.

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Now, we can do the math on the 1,260 days of the two witnesses. Remember, the two witnesses are mourning something, because they are prophesying in sacloth and ashes. What they're mourning is the breaking of the covenant in the middle of the week. The covenant was that the Israelis could keep their promised land. But the covenant was broken in 688.5 AD when the Muslims drove out the Jews. The prophecy has them mourning for 1,260 days (years). This event starts at 688.5 AD when the Jews are run out of Israel, and the prophecy should end when they come back into their land again, which was in 1948, right? Let's do the math:

688.5 AD + 1260 years = 1948.5 AD, the year the Jews became a nation again.

Thus, the Jews prophesied in the wilderness (the nations other than their promised land) with their Bible and its prophecies and their traditions for 1,260 years. No more mourning necessary and no more witnessing or prophesying once they come back into their land again.

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Now, I explained, also, in my first post back on page 5, which you did not read, that the second witness is the Christians, and they, too, came into their new promised land, America. The prophecy about them is one of the time, times and half a time prophecies. I won't explain it right now, but it ends right at 1776 AD, the year the United States was created. We have fulfilled the prophecies about Ephraim returning perfectly.

You would know all of this had you read my posts carefully. Please do yourself a favor and go read them carefully so you're not bringing up questions which have already been addressed in my first post. And no, my mathmatical calculations are perfect, as I just displayed again... and you have no way of knowing if most everyone thinks it's hogwash. Some people have responded with interest, a few have rejected it, and some have agreed with it. Stop making inaccurate statements and do some reading so you can post accurate statements please.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

Hi Roy,
The Bible only gives us two seasons, summer and winter. Not much to do with this thread but it could help define a few verses like the time from Daniel that says th 'rest of the beasts will live for a season and a time'. That should mean 7 months is a season is 6 months long and the next smaller measurement in time is a month. I doubt 'time' means a year in this case because it is about the feast the beasts of the fields at Christ's return.

Later

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
LOL! Who do you think corrected ME about Dani'el being a prophet?! I called him a prophet to a Jewish Rabbi and my Jewish friend corrected me and explained why the Orthodox Jews (in particular) do NOT count Dani'el as a prophet. You see, a prophet is one who delivers God's messages DIRECTLY to the Israelite people, and Dani'el never had such a chance. His book is counted as one of the Writings, not one of the Prophets. Prophecies are often found in other types of books, such as Genesis, Deuteronomy, Judges, I & II Samu'el, I & II Chronicles, Psalms, and Proverbs in the Tanakh (OT), and the Gospels, Paul's epistles, and Peter's epistles in the B'rit Chadashah (NT). Dani'el's writings CONTAIN prophecies that were told to HIM but HE was not instructed to voice them to the PEOPLE! If anyone is the prophet in Dani'el, it would be Gavri'el!

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Now, let's talk about "hermeneutic study," shall we? "Hermeneutic" is defined as "of or pertaining to hermeneutics," which in turn is defined as "the art or science of interpretation, especially of the Scriptures" OR "the branch of theology that deals with the principles of Biblical exegesis. [1730-40]" (Random House Webster's College Dictionary, Random House, New York, NY, (c) 1997) Thus, we can string all this together to say that "hermeneutic study" means ...

"the study of that which pertains to the art or science of interpretation, especially of the Scriptures, particularly that branch of theology that deals with the principles of Biblical exegesis."

"Biblical exegesis" is the key phrase here. "Exegesis" is a Greek word meaning an "out-leading" from the Scriptures; "eisegesis" is an "into-leading" into the Scriptures. "Exegesis" is reading what God is saying to us (without us putting in our two cents); "eisegesis" is reading our own beliefs and thoughts into the Scriptures. We do no one a service using the Scriptures as props for our belief-system. We need to be getting God's truth FROM the Scriptures.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

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Look, I'm a mathematician. Have been since before I started programming. So, I know that anyone with enough motivation can make the numbers say anything they want to say. It's obvious that some work was involved in the "prophecies/events" calculations you've made. However, to be honest, how long did it take you (or whoever first came out with the calculations) to come to these particular events? How many miscalculations were made before you (or whomever) stumbled on events that worked? What truly made you (or whomever) choose particular events for start points and end points of the time line segments that represent these time periods? Was it the events themselves or was it actually the numbers first? If it was the numbers first, then, YOU'RE RIGHT! It WOULD be statistically impossible to be coincidental because it was coincidental BY DESIGN!

See, I KNOW how these things work! I've had to deal with things like "88 Reasons Why The Rapture Could Be In 1988" and "On Borrowed Time: The Bible Dates of The 70th Week of Daniel, Armageddon, The Millennium" both by Edger C. Whisenant, "The Rapture" by Hal Lindsey, "The Beast of Revelation: Myth, Metaphor or Soon-Coming Reality?" by John H. Ogwyn, all the Chick Publications, and the Y2K crazies. It's tapered off a little after 2000, but I remember a 2004 theory, a 2008 theory, and a 2010 theory, since then, and now we're awaiting the results of the 2012 theory! What can I say? Call me skeptical.

OMG - you're a mathematician?? I'm sorry, but I don't believe that for a second. If you really were a mathematician, you would see the statistical impossibility in these prophecies. Also, you would understand that I could not have made up these events which were used for these prophecies! I challenge you to go look up the most agreed-upon dates in history for the events I listed for these prophecies and you will find every one of them to be the dates on which most historians agree they happened.

LOL! If I was really a mathematician, I would question ANY mathematics-based theory! I'm not saying you made up the dates of the events. I'm saying you (or someone) made up the mathematical means by which to ARRIVE at the dates of these events! (I'm still willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, unless you confess to coming up with the calculations yourself, of course.) I'm not impressed by a few cleverly devised, flimsy factors.

And, if YOU were a mathematician, you'd know that probability NEVER admits to an impossibility. Probability only gives you PROBABILITIES! It's always possible; just highly IMPROBABLE! There’s always at least one “tail” on a normal distribution curve. Probability gives one the LIKELINESS of an answer.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
The way the originator of this prophetic interpretation figured out on which dates the prophecies start and end are by the events spoken of in each prophecy. It's not rocket science. If you had done any sincere reading and study on this, you would've seen that immediately. But all you care about is being correct and trying to discredit what I've laid out. Daniel 12:11 clearly says "From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished" There's our starting point. In Daniel's time, the daily sacrifice was taken away in 583 BC, 3 years after the temple was destroyed. I even showed a verse which occurs seven months after the temple had been destroyed where priests were giving sacrifices on the temple mount just to prove that they were still giving sacrifices after the temple was destroyed. In 583 BC, all of the Jews were taken into captivity to Babylon and were not allowed to go back to the temple mount to give sacrifices. That was the end of the daily sacrifice for quite some time. I didn't make that up. The prophecy says it itself.

I don't care to discredit you. I care about getting to the TRUTH without a lot of side-show, numeric slight-of-hand!

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Then, the prophecy states that an abomination of desolation will be set up. Jesus explains more about this abomination of desolation in Matthew 24. So, we take 583 BC and add the 1271.5 solar years (1290 Hebrew years) to it and we get 688.5 AD. We know that a million Jews were slaughtered that year and the rest run out of Israel and the Dome of the Rock had just begun building on the outer court of the temple mount (the abomination of desolation was being built on a wing of the temple mount, just as the original hebrew states). I have given you all of this information in my original post, and yet you completely gloss over it like it's fabricated by me! One, I didn't come up with this stuff, and two, I cannot make up historical events and just throw in these numerical prophecies to come up with these calculations.

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(Remember: as a number line, the time line with our numbering system of dates has no zero.

From the time our Lord was born to the time just before He was 1 year old by our reckoning, is 1 A.D. or the “first year of the Lord.” Why is that? Because a Jewish baby was considered “in his first year” or born as “1 year old!”When he was fully “1 year old” by our reckoning, he would be considered moving into his second year or “2 years old.”

From just before our Lord was born backward to 1 year before is 1 B.C. or the “in the first year before Christ.”

Today, for convenience, we count the last point on the line segment as part of the line segment. Thus, we say that a person is 1 year old AT his first anniversary since his birth, and he remains 1year old until he reaches the second anniversary of his birthday when he is called “2 years old.” His age before he is 1 year old by our reckoning we number in months.

So, [-583] + 1290 - 1 = 706 A.D.)

I DON’T know of such a slaughter that year or of the rest of the Jews being run out of Isra’el at that time.

Good, I’m glad this isn’t your own work. I’m sorry, however, that you’ve been so misled.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
I'm sorry, but there's no way you're a mathematician or you would've immediately seen my math and understood that I could not have adjusted the calculations! I did the math exactly as a historial does when tracking things like this through history. I'll show you the math again, Mr. Mathematician!

If I want to turn 360 day Hebrew years into 365.24 day solar years, I have to divide 360 by 365.24, right? Of course.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
360 divided by 365.24 = .9857

.9857 is our conversion factor to turn Hebrew years into solar years.

Now, 1,290 Hebrew years multiplied by .9857 equals 1,271.5 solar years.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Any mathematician will immediately say, "There's nothing you can manipulate about those numbers. Those calculations are the required calculations to figure out this conversion of years." But not you. You said, "Oh, you must have messed with the calculations to make them fit.”

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Well, sorry, but I know how the author came up with these calculations. He took 583 BC and added 1271.5 solar years to it and came out to 688.5 AD and then said, "Alright, let me see what happened that year in history." That's when he found the Dome of the Rock being build and the Jews being slaughtered and run out of Israel. There was absolutely no manipulation to the numbers at all.

In this, the author came up with TWO errors! First, he added 1271.5 to -583 and calculated 688.5 (he forgot to subtract 1 for no zero year), and he did the math first and then looked for the event! In this particular case, I find fault with BOTH the mathematics AND the arithmetic!

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
The math is perfect. Do the math before you start accusing people of fraud. ALL of the calculations are perfect and unaltered, and all of the events spoken of in the prophecies define the beginning and end points of these prophecies. If you had read my post in full, you would know that. But you've done absolutely no sincere research into this prophetic interpretation, and that is why you completely fail at understanding it, disproving it and debating it.

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Oh, and by the way, I wasn’t “accusing anyone of fraud.” To defraud a person is a WILLFUL act of deception; I believe this is merely a case of ignorance. I like to quote Hanlon’s Razor which says, “Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.” (http://www.quotationspage.com/)

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
…

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Again, you're sticking words in my mouth! (I truly despise that practice!) I've never said, "I'm not going to debate you anymore." (Are you actually reading what I wrote?!) I'll debate you on this "til the cows come home!" I know you're not right in using a 360-day year! No one is! However, I'll give you this: You probably had examples of other Christians using this form of insanity and just picked up on it. So, in that way, it's not all your fault; however, once one knows the truth, it becomes one's fault if he/she continues to propagate nonsense.

Your post to me said you were not going to respond to my posts on this topic anymore. So you essentially said you weren't going to debate the topic anymore. I didn't put any words in your mouth. I just restated what you said in a different way. Stop trying to twist things around.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
And you are absolutely incorrect about the 360 day year. Do your research and stop calling my research incorrect. I know all about the calendar the Hebrews used to use and the one they use today. You're the one that needs to do some research. Find me some sources that show you're correct. The research will be good for you.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
And again, you still have not explained how all of the dates come out perfectly to the years of the events the prophecies describe happening! I've disproven all of your arguments thus far. Please answer my questions now.

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

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What you mean is, "no mather how I debate your interpretation, nothing is going to change your mind," and that's fine. You can believe what you want to believe; you will anyway. I will give you a couple of examples, but not in THIS post. It will take some time, although less time to disprove than it took to "prove" them in the first place. Try not to be so defensive; sure they took work, but they are just numbers after all. "Willingly ignorant"? "You being right is more important than you knowing the truth"? "You are too prideful"? These are "ad hominem" fallacies of logic. If you can't attack the problem, you attack the person. That's NOT a good way to win an argument. Thank you for not meaning any disrespect, however.

First of all, I did attack the problem, and quite well. I've corrected all of your inaccurate statements thus far and defended this interpretation perfectly well. You are the one that's not attacking the problem. You have made claims that I must have altered the calculations or configured things to come out the way I wanted them, and yet you haven't shown me any mathematical data to prove that! So they're just false accusations! You've never given a reason why the numerical prophecies come out to the exact years on which they are supposed to. You continue to say I'm wrong, but you fail to show it! I didn't attack you in any way. All of the statements I made about you are factual statements. A prideful person is one who refuses to believe someone else is right and they're wrong. And so they do what they can to explain away the other person, because they're so certain they're right. That is incredibly arrogant. If you were not threatened by the interpretation I put forth, you would have actually made an effort to learn what it says, learn if the historical dates are accurate and if the math checks out and if anything was manipulated incorrectly. You did none of those things. You made no attempt to actually disprove the interpretation. Instead, all you did was make baseless accusations to make it appear as if I'm wrong and you're right. Well, sorry... that's not the way it works in academia. If you want to debate with the scholars, you need to show proof of your claims. I came to the table with all of my facts in order and I debated it exactly as I should have and I have, so far, disproven all of your baseless accusations. You, on the other hand, have stuck with your baseless accusations, and shown no facts to disprove the interpretation whatsoever. You are failing miserably at defending your interpretation and disproving mine.

Do some honest research on my interpretation, the mathematics, and the dates. If there is a problem, anyone with half a brain can find it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure these simple calculations out! This is all very easy stuff. So if you're a mathematician, it should be a cake-walk.

Please, by all means, prove me wrong if you're so sure you're right. Let's see your proof! Show me the bad math or the false dates or something that invalidates my interpretation! Show me SOMETHING that's legitimate instead of just repeating, "you're wrong".

Just look at the bold-faced material above. Those are personal attacks. Thank you for proving my point so admirably. You’ve shown your true characer.

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You want proof, I’ll give you proof:

Let’s talk about how you arrived at 688 A.D.: First, you used the VERY suspicious method of adding 1271 to 583 B.C. Assuming you are correct with taking the initial point of 583 B.C. By taking 1290 days, converting them to 1290 years BASELESSLY and multiplying by (360 days/yr / 365.24 days/yr) = 0.9857, you arrived at 1271.49 years…. If you are then going to add that to 583 B.C., you must then subtract 1 from your difference because there is no year zero. -583 + 1271.5 – 1 = 687.5. This would be 687 A.D.

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However, we should not have changed 1290 years to 1271 years, dropping 19 YEARS! That’s a LONG time! So, let’s add the 1290 years to 583 B.C. So, -583 + 1290 – 1 = 706 A.D. What happened in 706 A.D.? In a word, NOTHING!

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Remember this morsel you tossed at Montana Marv?

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Either your reading comprehension is exceptionally low, or you did not read my posts at all which I recommended you read. You clearly haven't a clue what I was explaining in my previous posts concerning the 70 weeks and the two witnesses.

Hmmm… more disrespect.

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The two witnesses are revealed right there in Revelation 11. It says the two witnesses are the two lampstands and two olive trees before the throne of the Lord of the earth. Revelation 1:20 says lampstands represent churches, and Paul explains in Romans how the native Olive tree is the Jews and the wild olive tree is the Gentile (Christian) church. Therefore, the two witnesses are the Jewish church and the Christian church. Revelation 11 tells us that quite clearly. If you had read my other posts, I explain how the two witnesses prophesied exactly 1,260 years as they were prophesied to do. As for the 3 1/2 years, yes, the two witnesses laid in the streets dead for 3 1/2 years. I'll explain.

Remember, the Hebrew calendar had 360 day years. So, multiply 3.5 years by 360 days and what do you get? 1260 days in 3 1/2 years. Each day is a year. So that's 1,260 years, just like the prophecy says.

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Now, take 688.5 AD. 688.5 AD is when 1 million Jews were slaughtered in Israel by the Muslims and the rest were run out of Israel. The Christians knew this was coming, because Jesus warned them. In Matt 24, Jesus tells the Christians, "When you see the Abomination of Desolation standing on the holy place (the temple mount)... flee Judea, for then will be great tribulation..." So, when the Christians saw the Dome of the Rock being built on the temple mount, they got the heck out of Israel as quickly as they could. The Jews, however, did not have this prophecy, and so they stayed and were slaughtered. That was the beginning of their great tribulation (the 3 1/2 days they lie dead in the streets).

Now, in Revelation 11, we know it's talking about Muslim rulership of the temple mount, because it says to measure the temple, but not its outer courts, because they will be trodden down by the Gentiles (the Muslims, in this case) for 42 months. So, from the time of the building of the Dome of the Rock (688.5 AD) to the time the Jews regain control of the temple mount will be 42 months of years. Let's do the math:

First, how many days are in a 365.24 day year? 365.24 divided by 12 = 30.44 days per month. Now, multiply 42 months by 30.44 days and you get 1278.5 days. Each day equals a year so that's 1278.5 years. So the prophecy says the Gentiles will rule the temple mount for 1278.5 years, right? Let's see if that works out properly:

688.5 AD + 1278.5 years = 1967 AD (that's the year Israel took back Jerusalem and the temple mount in the famous Six Day War). So the prophecy is dead on accurate.

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Now, we can do the math on the 1,260 days of the two witnesses. Remember, the two witnesses are mourning something, because they are prophesying in sacloth and ashes. What they're mourning is the breaking of the covenant in the middle of the week. The covenant was that the Israelis could keep their promised land. But the covenant was broken in 688.5 AD when the Muslims drove out the Jews. The prophecy has them mourning for 1,260 days (years). This event starts at 688.5 AD when the Jews are run out of Israel, and the prophecy should end when they come back into their land again, which was in 1948, right? Let's do the math:

688.5 AD + 1260 years = 1948.5 AD, the year the Jews became a nation again.

Thus, the Jews prophesied in the wilderness (the nations other than their promised land) with their Bible and its prophecies and their traditions for 1,260 years. No more mourning necessary and no more witnessing or prophesying once they come back into their land again.

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I, for one, am getting a little tired of your “perfection!” No one is perfect, especially if he or she wields numbers in this way.

There are simpler, more honest explanations for the numbers.

In the Messiah’s love,
Roy

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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Brian.

I got to thinking this weekend about the information you were attempting to share and the WAY in which you chose to share it.


I think you would have gotten an entirely different review on the information you presented IF you had changed you demeanor and your qualifiers. If you had admitted that some of the ideas were conjecture and had used "some" or at least "most" instead of "all" a few times, it would have made your information MUCH more palatable. When someone claims to present "absolute proof" or when someone says his information or his calculations are "perfect," I IMMEDIATELY react! I say in my heart, "Oh, yeah?! Let's just see...," and then I go looking for the "hiccups"--the errors to which all men are subject.

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Looking back at post #130, I remember getting interested in what you were saying until you got to the phrase, "all of the water was underneath the crust of the earth...." If you had just said, "some of the water was underneath the crust of the earth," or even "most of the water was underneath the crust of the earth," I would have been more agreeable. However, to say, "ALL of the water," was just wrong! It began to rain ON THE SAME DAY that the fountains of the deep were broken! (Gen. 7:11) Furthermore, there was a SEA in which fish lived and from which the birds sprang, and that was CERTAINLY not under the crust of the earth! (Gen. 1:20-23)

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I rather liked the ice skater analogy; being interested in physics, I understand about inertia and angular momentum. That made sense to me. A slight change in the diameter of the earth (AND its trailing gas cloud, the atmosphere) should change its rotational speed.

But, then you started getting "absolutist" on me: "So if a calendar year was 360 days on Daniel's calendar back then, that means the prophecy was to be understood as such. ... And as you saw, ALL of the prophecies came out EXACTLY TO THE YEARS in which they were prophecied to and the exact events happened in those years which were prophesied to happen." If you could have toned that down a little by adjusting your demeanor, I would have been more receptive.

And, just HOW did you calculate the "odds of just one of these prophecies coming true?" "10 to the 27th power to 1"? HOW can we verify that? What evidence are you using to suggest such odds? Throwing out numbers to impress can also be a deterrant to someone accepting your information.

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I'm going back and reading through Skolfield's book, but I've gotta tell ya', I've still got my doubts! Just because numbers come out to the dates one is aiming for doesn't mean that those numbers in prophecy were FOR THAT REASON! Coincidences still occur, despite the odds! Again, there's still the "tail" on the normal distribution curve! I'm not being "willingly ignorant" (sheesh!); I'm being "willingly HONEST and CAREFUL!"

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Moving into your next post (Post #131 to Arley), avoid the word "perfectly." It just throws more oil on the fire rather than water.

Technically, you should have said, "the earth made 360 ROTATIONS before it made its way around the Sun," and the path around the sun is called a "revolution." I am a bit of a nit-picker! After all, as an aspiring author, I tend to edit my own work, and I'm a perfectionist of sorts. (I think that trait came from my mom always correcting my English. Misspellings and English errors POP right out at me! I'm always correcting my posts before I post them.) This trait in me has been a GOOD thing when it comes to my mathematics, science, and computer programming work. You just need to understand that little slip-ups like that can also reduce my likelihood of accepting the "facts."

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[To the rest of the public: Sorry, y'all, but I almost always notice the split infinitives, the wrong-word usages, the misspellings, and other English errors. I just try really hard to read through them and not comment too much on them. Sometimes, though, it's difficult to figure out what you're trying to say. Love y'all anyway!]

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I'm also not too keen on your explanation for the moon's distance from the earth changing.

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THAT does NOT make sense! The moon's orbit is not affected by what goes on at the surface of the earth. It is based on the amount of MASS of the earth, including all of its solid, liquid, and gaseous portions. The distance of the moon to the center of mass of the earth would NOT have changed ... at least, not for THAT reason. It's possible something else, like a comet or a meteor passing by, may have changed its distance from earth, but we're talking an average of 238,857 MILES away! Considering that the farthest reaches of the earth's atmosphere only extend about 300 miles today (if one includes the ionosphere), only a change in the earth's TOTAL mass could have affected it, unless acted upon by an outside source. That would only be possible if a chunk of the earth was torn away or if a meteorite of significant size smacked into it!

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By the way, the moon has one of the most stable orbits found in the known galaxy AS IT IS TODAY! And, THAT is significant in the choice of whether to believe that something happened to the moon's orbit to change it's distance from the earth. See, an orbit is the answer to the old Abbot and Costello joke of frustration:

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Costello: "I was so frustrated yesterday; EVERYTHING went wrong!"
Abbot: "Why, Lou? What happened?'
Costello: "I threw myself to the ground..."
Abbot: "Yes?"
Costello: "and MISSED it!"

That's what happens when an object is in orbit. It is constantly falling to a ground that constantly falls away from it because of the ground's curvature.

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It's falling, but it keeps missing the earth! Some people have the mistaken concept that it hovers over the earth somehow, but that's not what's going on. So, unless something happens to the earth (or the moon) to change the mutual attraction between the two, it will continue to fall to the earth and miss it. The mutual attraction between the two is found in the interaction between their gravitational constants, and those are based on the masses of the objects.

Therefore, I find it hard to see how the Flood could have affected the moon's synodic period of 29.5 days. As a matter of physics, the moon is said to be slowing down the earth, which in turn widens the moon's orbital distance:

Most of the tidal effects seen on the Earth are caused by the Moon's gravitational pull, with the Sun making a somewhat smaller contribution. Tidal drag slows the Earth's rotation by about 0.002 seconds per day per century. As a result of the conservation of angular momentum, the slowing of Earth's rotation is accompanied by an increase of the mean Earth-Moon distance of about 3.8 m per century, or 3.8 cm per year. (The rest of the article on the Moon can be found here at Wikipedia.)

That "conservation of angular momentum" will also tend to keep the synodic period of 29.5 days fairly constant as well as the sidereal period.

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All I'm trying to say is this: "One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

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ORIGINAL: Montana Marv

To All

Mathematics is just mathematics. It is a means to an end. But prophecy is prophecy, for prophecy is from the Godhead and thus cannot be changed. The 70 weeks of sevens has modifiers so we know the 70 - sevens is in fact 490 years, and they are grouped in full sevens. Now in Dan 12: 11,12, no modifiers are given, so the 1,290 day period and the 1,335 day period from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished must stand as days (not years).

You cannot use the scripture that a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day to the Lord. Is all this verse is, is a comparison, meaning that the Lord has no time constraints, He exists w/o Time, for time is for our benefit.

If you want numbers, here's some: There are 40 generations from Adam to Issac the Promised Son, there are 40 generations from Jacob to Jesus the Promised Messiah. If you want to take this further, there maybe 40 generations from Jesus the promised Messiah to Jesus the Promised King. Or this 40th generation will see the coming of the King. Most likely this last 40 generations started with one of Jesus' half brothers, or their sons (just conjecture).

In Christ
Montana Marv

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ORIGINAL: Montana Marv

Brian

I don't need to changed scripture. If it fits by your calculations, it is by coincidence. The first objective is to keep the prophecy as pure as it really is. What does it say, and does it mean what it says. If it does not mean what it says, then someone changed the prophecy, which would mean that all calculations based from a misquoted prophecy are null and void. Daniel specifically says 1,290 days and 1,335 days from the A/D; to interchange years for days is to misquote and change the prophecy. This is not acceptable.

In Christ
Montana Marv

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

Hi Brian,
Here are two verses that I don't recall seeing in your posts.
The first reference should mean 2300 years (600BC + 2300yrs = 1900 AD) plus the error in my numbers compared to the actual date. According to your numbers that has an error of 1-3 yrs (I assume that could mean in either direction rather than time in both directions. How does that not reduce your theory down from 'absolute' down by at least 30% 1948 1/2 could mean 1947-1950. If you can be off 3 yrs you shouldn't be able to use terms that are finer than that, in some versions 3 1/2 years is the whole time of the most danger.

Da:8:13:
Then I heard one saint speaking,
and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice,
and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Da:8:14:
And he said unto me,
Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

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In this 2nd one 'time should equal 1 yr (solar/ converted lunar), season has yet to be defined as anything, I take it to mean 6 months @ 2 seasons/year. That would be 180 years or 180 days.

Da:7:12:
As concerning the rest of the beasts,
they had their dominion taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

One point you did promote was the use of the 1,000yrs = 1 day (with God)
That would seem to be a reference to something covered in the NT, like the 1,000 year reign under Christ.

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If you use references that come after this verse was written then the times in Revelation would be the 'short day' (24hrs) rather than prophetic (1yr).

M't:24:22:
And except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(1 day = 24 hrs)

How would that not apply to some (all) of the dates in Revelation? If just the 1st woe is 5 months long then it is either 150 days or 150 years. In only one can the same generation be there to see the start and end. Even Revelation 1 mentions that time is going to happen 'quickly'.

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The time Satan is given is a 'short time', since he is the one that releases the Beast from the Pit then the Beast's time also has to be on the short side of time.

Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

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How all of your events tie into each other should include some verses not found in Daniel, but because they are prophetic they should be the same in terms of meaning. Ezekiel 39 says the whole House of Israel will be burning the weapons of war for 7 years. A year for a day means that takes 2520 years and the 7 month gathering of the bones would actuall be 210 years long before they went out into the Nations to do the same. Normally that would be during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

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I will stop here but more things need to be covered like does one day mean one day or one year and does one hour mean 60 minutes.

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Those 10 men are given Kingdoms at the start of the Beasts 42 months, what Nations have stayed in power for 1260 years? Let alone that nobody stays alive that long.

Hope all of the above addresses the doctrine alone.

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Quoting from "The False Prophet": "In 1569, the great Anabaptist theologian, Thieleman van Braght, wrote the following in Martyrs Mirror, pages 21-24: 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days, which reckoned according to prophetic language means as many years… let it be reckoned as it may, say we, as a very long period of time.'

Two hundred years later, Matthew Henry, in his 'Commentary of the Whole Bible', came to the same conclusion (Vol VI, page 1157 column 1, para. 2): "….if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be."

Also Jamison, Faucett & Brown commentary - "..... in the wilderness 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days.' In the wider sense, we may either adopt the year-day theory of 1260 years..."

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

Oh, by the way, I think I messed up one interpretation earlier.

The 3 1/2 years of the two witnesses lying dead in the streets may, or may not, be 360-day years. They could be 365.24 day years, because the prophecy is being given to John, whom is under a 365.24-day solar calendar like we use today. I'll show the math of both:

3.5 x 360 = 1,260 years (that's exactly the amount of time the two witnesses are said to have been prophesying to the world)

3.5 x 365.24 = 1,278.34 years (1,278.5 years is what the 42 months comes out to when turned into years)

All three of these prophecies (the 42 months, 1,260 days and 3 1/2 years) are all present in this single chapter of Revelation 11, and all are one big prophecy, more or less, since they're linked right together, back-to-back. I'm not for certain which interpretation is correct about the witnesses lying in the streets for 3 1/2 days. It could be one or it could be both. I can't be for sure, to be honest. All I know is, it's awful interesting that no matter under which calendar you do the math for these years, it comes out to two separate number of years which are both significant. That's pretty cool.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
I never promoted the use of 1,000 years = 1 day. I said that 2 Peter 3:8 is translated improperly, and that "day" in that verse is actually supposed to be translated as "time". Hemera is the Koine Greek word for "time". For example, if you read "in that time, there will be great tribulation" "time", in that sense, is being used as a period of time, not a day. But if you were to translate "time" in that example sentence I gave you to say "day" instead, it would read like this: "In that day, there will be great tribulation". That does not mean a single day. It means "in that time". "Day" is denoting a period of time, not a single, twenty-four-hour day. A twenty-four-hour day is a different word entirely in the Greek. Therefore, we know this passage should not say day, but rather, time. The verse should read:

For time is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like time. The "a" is something we add in when translating for understanding's sake, if I'm not mistaken. You can double check me on that if you like by looking at an interlinear Greek-English translation.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
You'll need to check your translations and colloquialisms for this one. The saying is that the days will be "cut short". This saying does not mean a shorter day. This saying means that there will not be as many days as originally intended. So if the end were going to be in 2025 AD, but God decided that was a bit too long, then He would come early, which would mean the days were 'cut short'. My theory on this is that God set up the universe in a specific fashion so that the sun, moon and stars, like clockwork, would signify certain specific days and times, etc.. For example, there was a solar eclipse right when Jesus died, sending the entire land into darkness. Also, since we can track the solar and lunar eclipses in history now due to the fact that we know the exact calculations to figure this out, we can tell on which days there were lunar and solar eclipses. The 9th of Av is a cursed day for the Jews because that was the date on which the 12 spies reported back about the Promised Land having giants in it which they did not believe God could overcome (except for 2 of them, of course). That day, by their reconing, has been cursed ever since. In 1290 AD, on the Ninth of Av, the Jews were run out of England, if I remember correctly. In 1562 (I'm actually blanking on the date... not sure that's accurate), on the Ninth of Av, they were run out of another country. There are significant occurances on the Ninth of Av for the Jews throughout history, and it's always something bad that happens to them. It just so happens that we've managed to track back to those dates in history and we know that lunar (or solar) eclipses happen on those years. One type of eclipse means judgment of the Jews and one means judgment on the world. I forget which is which. I think the lunar eclipses are judgments on the Jews and solar eclipses are judgments on the earth, but I forget exactly. There's an interesting video on YouTube that explains it all. I don't recall the name of it at the moment.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
In the video, the hosts tell how there were four different eclipses on significant dates in a single year, in many instances, for the Jews. In 1948, when they got their nation back, this happened. In 1967, when they got their temple mount and Jerusalem back, this happened. It will occur again in 2015. Is it possible that 2015 is the date originally planned by Jesus to come back? I haven't a clue. But if it were, and the days are cut short, meaning He'll come back before that time, then that would mean He could come back a few years before that. Who knows? I'm just giving examples to help you understand that the Hebrew saying "cut short" means and how it my apply to the prophecy in that statement. Hope this helps.

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The time Satan is given is a 'short time', since he is the one that releases the Beast from the Pit then the Beast's time also has to be on the short side of time.

Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Since it doesn't indicate how long Satan will be let loose, there's nothing I can calculate or map out in regard to this prophecy.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
I do not believe in a thousand year tribulation, though, because the word "thousand" in the Greek is an infinitive plural, meaning that the term could be used to describe "many" of something, or it could be used to describe exactly a thousand, or it could be used to describe thousands, plural. Also, the way you disprove the millenial reign of Christ is simple: in Revelation chapter 10, we're told:

Rev 10:6-7
6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Some translations say "no more delay", but that is directly butchering the original saying the Jews had, which means the ending of time altogether "time no longer". Tyndell knew the saying and used the appropriate English saying for the translation of the King James Version by saying, "time no longer". It was later that people took that saying and butchered it to say "no more delay" or "delay no more". This prophecy is saying that in the days of the seventh angel sounding his trumpet, the mystery of God will be finished, and there will be no more "time". We will be in eternity from there on out. So how could their be a thousand year reign of Christ if there is no such thing as time in existence any longer?

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Most likely, the millennial reign of Christ was speaking of the thousand-plus years of Christ being recognized as the Messiah by the known world (the Holy Roman Empire). Technically, the Holy Roman Empire is said to have lasted exactly 1,000 years. This could be the fulfillment of that prophecy, because Christ, through government and religion, was recognized as the Messiah, the King, God Almighty. Paganism was virtually wiped out and converted to Christianity. This is conjecture, though. There's no way to be sure about the time period, of course. It's just a guess.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
I can ask Ellis about that too, sometime, and see what that prophecy means. I'm not sure if he's tried to figure that one out yet or not. You should check out his website sometime. Ask him your question there if you like. I'll see if I can ask him sometime soon and respond, but you are welcome to do it yourself.

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
One hour is 1 twenty-fourth of a day. Thus, 1 hours means 1 twenty-fourth of a year, which, I think, is about 15.21 days (or in a 360 day year, it's exactly 15 days).

Actually, it says those men were in power "one hour" with the beast. And I didn't say that was a past event or a future event. I think it's a future event, but I'll have to check on that. I don't study this stuff as heavily as I used to, so pulling it right off the top of my head is not as easy as it used to be.

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ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

Oh, by the way, I think I messed up one interpretation earlier.

The 3 1/2 years of the two witnesses lying dead in the streets may, or may not, be 360-day years. They could be 365.24 day years, because the prophecy is being given to John, whom is under a 365.24-day solar calendar like we use today. I'll show the math of both:

3.5 x 360 = 1,260 years (that's exactly the amount of time the two witnesses are said to have been prophesying to the world)

3.5 x 365.24 = 1,278.34 years (1,278.5 years is what the 42 months comes out to when turned into years)

All three of these prophecies (the 42 months, 1,260 days and 3 1/2 years) are all present in this single chapter of Revelation 11, and all are one big prophecy, more or less, since they're linked right together, back-to-back. I'm not for certain which interpretation is correct about the witnesses lying in the streets for 3 1/2 days. It could be one or it could be both. I can't be for sure, to be honest. All I know is, it's awful interesting that no matter under which calendar you do the math for these years, it comes out to two separate number of years which are both significant. That's pretty cool.

The 42 months time given in Re:11 is the time the Gentiles will trample (have control over) Jerusalem. Scripture says 30 days is a full month, 5 months is said to be 150 days (Noah and the flood dates), projecting that onto the 42 months is 1260 days. At the end of that time Jesus comes as King at takes control of Jerusalem (just for starters because it is the whole planet that is claimed at that time.) The context of the reference below is later than when it was written. 70AD would qualify as Jerusalem being surrounded by a fighting army, in Revelation the Beast from the Pit kills the two and then gifts are being passed back and forth in Jerusalem, most likely for the whole time they are dead. That means the 42 months of the Beast (Re:13:5:) overlaps that of the two witnesses to some extent. If it is Gentiles passing gifts back and forth then the time of the Gentiles also overlaps those two other time-frames. 1260 years from 70AD is 1330, having them back-to-back takes it to 2590AD. Since that was not the only conflict with Rome that 70AD date cold be moved even later by a few hundred years. Rome didn't enter the Temple (let alone destroy it) before 70AD (as a rule). I seem to recall reading that the renovations had just been completed not long before it was torn down so Rome allowed the Temple to be under Jewish control (to a certain extent).

Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.