quote:

ORIGINAL: Montana Marv

Roy

You need to know more about war and the war (revolt) between Israel and Rome. Jerusalem was under siege by Rome for more than 6 months before it fell in 70 AD. That would mean that Rome had control of the country. Rome already was sending those of Israel into exile before 70 AD. Masada fell in 73 AD. All committed suicide. If Israel was already overrun by the Roman army before 70 AD, they should have fled before the conflict. All that was accomplished beside the temple being destroyed was the dispersal of the Jews throughout the Roman Empire. This is what Ezk 37 is all about, Those of Israel returning back to their Promised Land.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
And to your: Today that would not work (fleeing) because of helicopters, satellites (and such). You're sounding a lot like Hal Lindsey. (using present day war methods for the end times). You have forgotten the X - Factor. Dan 12:1 - At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of the nations until then. And Rev 12: 12 - Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. But, woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you. He is fill with fury, because he knows that his time is short. Then jump to verse 14- The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time out of the serpents reach. (3 1/2 years). Look who is attacking the woman (Israel), but Satan, not the Antichrist. And for how long 3 1/2 years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Now according to Rev 13 the beast who had the fatal wound which was healed. vs 4 - Who can make war against him? vs 5 -the beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty two months. (3 1/2 years) Now this beast is able to overcome the saints. It says nothing about Israel.

Here the A/C has a 3 1/2 year rule, then Satan has a 3 1/2 year rule. Alas, the 70th week of Daniel is one full week with no gaps.

In Christ
Montana Marv

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Therefore, the "rest of them" is not talking about all the people all over the earth; it's talking about those who invaded Isra'el for the final battle for Isra'el and Yerushalayim. It does NOT mean that "all unbelievers will be killed."

Furthermore, I do believe that it is slightly before the return of the Messiah to the ground in Isra'el that all of us believers will be given glorified bodies and then raptured. The whole point of the rapture is to get us to Isra'el with the returned Messiah to rescue (save) Isra'el from the marauders and slavers, murderers and rapists. Once again, the Messiah sends out His messengers to retrieve those who are His and fly them to Isra'el quickly! It's a mass transit system!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No! This is a common claim, but by analogy, just as we can know approximately when a baby will be born and not know the exact day or the exact hour when the birth will happen, in the same way we can know approximately when Yeshua` will return without knowing the exact day or the hour! And, by the time they see the Messiah coming, there'd be no time! Believers won't need to be waiting at Har-Megiddown (since they'll be coming by "air mail"), and unbelievers won't believe He'll be coming! Those who desire the conquest of Isra'el will think themselves relatively unchallenged.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Most of the believers who believe in the "glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Rescuer Yeshua` haMashiach" have a strange sense of what to be expecting from the tribulation events! In every verse that talks about the "hope" ("assurance") of the resurrection also talk about the patience needed to wait for the day. If the events of the tribulation are between our current position in time and the second coming of the Messiah, we are instructed to look beyond the troubles that we may or may not have to endure to get through to the blessed hope. Thus, our hope is not the tribulation events, but beyond those to the actual coming of Yeshua` and the associated resurrection and the rapture to follow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Okay, here's the scoop: When I was talking about "getting hung up on terminology and labels," I was talking about the labels that are so frequently bantied about, such as "tribulation," "great tribulation," the "Antichrist," "rapture," "millennial kingdom," etc. These labels are LOCKED INTO THE MINDS of those who have constantly been bombarded with the teachings of a particular viewpoint. Be it the way that a term or label is used or the added words, the term or label is not quite the same as the Scriptures introduced them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

Hi Roy.
Could you first show support that 3 1/2 years passed before the cross?

quote:

While the Scriptures do not say that Yeshua`s ministry was exactly 3.5 years, we are given contextual clues that give us that conclusion:

First, Yochanan's baptism was done in Nahar haYarden (the River Jordan), and although it has several bends and turns, it is a fast moving river, especially during the rainy season, because it flows from Yam haKinneret (the Sea of Galilee, 685 feet below sea level) to Yam haMelach (the Salt Sea or the Dead Sea, 1300 feet below sea level) over a stretch of a little over 60 miles! That's a fall of about 10 feet a mile! The rainy season in Isra'el is from October to at least April and even to early May, the peak being in December, and the Yarden frequently overflows its banks, becoming a river on which one could go whitewater rafting! The dry season is from early May to September.

Thus, it would make sense that Yeshua` would have been baptized no later than September, which is one possible date for Yeshua`s birthday since some feel that he could have been born on Rosh haShannah (the Jewish New Year's Day, which is supposed to be the anniversary of the Creation), Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), or at the latest during Succot (the feast of Tabernacles or Booths). We know that He started His ministry close to His birthday. (Luke 3:23)

The Gospel of Yochanan (John) lists three Passovers which Yeshua` attended with His students (John 2:13; 5:1; 6:4), the fourth Pesach (Passover) being the one when He was crucifed (Matt. 26:2ff; Mark 14:1ff; Luke 22:1ff; John 11:55ff). Pesach is always celebrated on the 14th of the month Nisan in the Jewish calendar which corresponds roughly from March to April. How does that add up to you? Sounds like roughly 1/2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.5 years!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Therefore, the "rest of them" is not talking about all the people all over the earth; it's talking about those who invaded Isra'el for the final battle for Isra'el and Yerushalayim. It does NOT mean that "all unbelievers will be killed."

Furthermore, I do believe that it is slightly before the return of the Messiah to the ground in Isra'el that all of us believers will be given glorified bodies and then raptured. The whole point of the rapture is to get us to Isra'el with the returned Messiah to rescue (save) Isra'el from the marauders and slavers, murderers and rapists. Once again, the Messiah sends out His messengers to retrieve those who are His and fly them to Isra'el quickly! It's a mass transit system!

That reference from that verse could be specific to just the armies mentioned, however other verses should support that also. The ones I reference point to when judgment come (the 7 vials) it is worldwide simple because Christ claims the kingdoms of the world as belonging to God.
Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The ones living carelessly in the Isles are Gentiles, there are only two groups Israel and Gentiles, Israel is healed and the Gentile Nations are judged, not just the armies but all sinners are judged on that day.

Eze:39:6:
And I will send a fire on Magog,
and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze:39:7:
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel;
and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more:
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
the Holy One in Israel.
Eze:39:8:
Behold,
it is come,
and it is done,
saith the Lord GOD;
this is the day whereof I have spoken.

There are more that say basically the same thing, when Christ claims Israel He also claims the rest of the planet. Everybody that is a danger to Israel or the Church is dead by the end of the first day, survivors will walk to Israel. The ones from Israel that are resurrected seem to come from one large pile so perhaps the bones are collected just prior to actually breath entering the dead body.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No! This is a common claim, but by analogy, just as we can know approximately when a baby will be born and not know the exact day or the exact hour when the birth will happen, in the same way we can know approximately when Yeshua` will return without knowing the exact day or the hour! And, by the time they see the Messiah coming, there'd be no time! Believers won't need to be waiting at Har-Megiddown (since they'll be coming by "air mail"), and unbelievers won't believe He'll be coming! Those who desire the conquest of Isra'el will think themselves relatively unchallenged.

Christians are promised that we will not see Christ come as a thief in the night, He comes that way to the children of darkness (the decieved) and Christians are called the children of the light. Since Scripture cover events just prior to His arrival then God does want us to know certain things. It is also quite possible that we won't be able to pinpoint the exact moment that marks 3 1/2 years. Even marking the 3 1/2 days the witnesses lay dead might be difficult unless you were right there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Most of the believers who believe in the "glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Rescuer Yeshua` haMashiach" have a strange sense of what to be expecting from the tribulation events! In every verse that talks about the "hope" ("assurance") of the resurrection also talk about the patience needed to wait for the day. If the events of the tribulation are between our current position in time and the second coming of the Messiah, we are instructed to look beyond the troubles that we may or may not have to endure to get through to the blessed hope. Thus, our hope is not the tribulation events, but beyond those to the actual coming of Yeshua` and the associated resurrection and the rapture to follow.

From the verses I have read, our duty is the same during that time as it always has been: obey those two Laws. 1Pet:4 has a nice passage about those days and what out conduct should be like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Okay, here's the scoop: When I was talking about "getting hung up on terminology and labels," I was talking about the labels that are so frequently bantied about, such as "tribulation," "great tribulation," the "Antichrist," "rapture," "millennial kingdom," etc. These labels are LOCKED INTO THE MINDS of those who have constantly been bombarded with the teachings of a particular viewpoint. Be it the way that a term or label is used or the added words, the term or label is not quite the same as the Scriptures introduced them.

When piecing together the sequence of events surrounding Christ's return you cannot lump 'tribulation' and 'great tribulation' as being one and the same event. Only the first two woes are defined as being 'tribulation' (on believers via non-believers). Only the 3rd woe is called 'great tribulation', Christ's destruction of all wickedness on the face of the earth.

Later

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If the rapture happens after the tribulation, then
-Our "blessed hope" to look forward would not be the "glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ", but to look forward for the tribulation events to start, which by no means look pretty. (Titus 2:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Most of the believers who believe in the "glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Rescuer Yeshua` haMashiach" have a strange sense of what to be expecting from the tribulation events! In every verse that talks about the "hope" ("assurance") of the resurrection also talk about the patience needed to wait for the day. If the events of the tribulation are between our current position in time and the second coming of the Messiah, we are instructed to look beyond the troubles that we may or may not have to endure to get through to the blessed hope. Thus, our hope is not the tribulation events, but beyond those to the actual coming of Yeshua` and the associated resurrection and the rapture to follow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

My view is distinctly different than the traditional posttrib position, particularly in the sense that I no longer believe that the whole 7-year period of Dani'el's 70th seven is still in the future. As to which verses support it, where do I begin? The key is found (IMO) within the definitions of certain words.

I see. But on Dec 26th you said that "y'all shouldn't get so hung up on terminology and labels". So should we or shouldn't we? :)

quote:

Post #35 of this thread:
You know, y'all shouldn't get so hung up on terminology and labels. Labels like "tribulation" and "wrath" and "Day of the Lord" are your undoing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Continuing with your view:

quote:

I currently believe that half of the week is already gone, fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach. One can find that from a true interpretation of Dani'el 9:24-27; Matthew 23:37-39; Hebrews 9:1-10:22 in conjunction with Matthew 27:50-53; and Acts 1:9-11. See, Dani'el 9:24-27 is usually interpreted as though the "Antichrist" will be the one to make a covenant for one week (7 years) that will be broken in the middle of the week (3.5 years). But, through the grammar of English and of Hebrew, the one who makes the covenant is not the "prince that shall come," but is the "Messiah" of verse 26! This fact, in turn, strengthens my interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39.

I see the reason why you would rather say that the word "He" in verse 27 refers to the "Messiah" rather than to the "Antichrist". I think we can agree that verse 27 does not specifically designates who it is talking about. In a case like this I always compare the difficult verse to other verses and see how they interpret it. (I guess you do the same)

So, let's take a look at other scriptures in light of your 2 statements in which you say:
-The first half of Daniel's 70th week is already gone
-In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist.

In this case I see the following problems:

1. Daniel's 70th week according to your view is at least 2000 years long:
This would be inconsistent with Daniel 9:24 which says "Seventy weeks are determined". 69 of of the 70 weeks were 7 years long each.
My Question is: What scripture would back up that the 70th week drags out to be more than 2000 years long?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
2. If the first half of Daniel's 70th week is already gone, then according to Revelation the 7 Seals must have been opened already:
As I see the Seals, they do correspond to the coming of Antichrist and then to the battle of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38-39 chapters).
See the following link to the Sequential order of events in the Book of Revelation.
My question is: If the seals were already opened, then when and where in history was the Battle of Gog and Magog according to your view?
Or if you say that the battle of Gog and Magog does not correspond to the Seals, then where do you put this battle in the book of Revelation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then the covenant that Jesus makes is going to be for 1 week (7 Years to be consistent with Daniel 9:24).
According to Luk 22:20, Heb 8:13; 9:15 Jesus did make a covenant while He was on Earth, but that covenant is not for 7 years, but forever!
My question: What Kind of a covenant did Jesus make while he was here on Earth that lasts for 7 years?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
4. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then according to the same verse "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". So according to you Jesus had the sacrifice and the oblation to cease when he was on Earth. This can not be true as the sacrifice and the oblation continued up until AD70. Keep in mind that, you said: "half of the week is already gone, fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach"
My question, what scripture backs up the continuation of the sacrifices for ~40 more years?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
5. Your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39:
I see why you would feel good about your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39 if the Messiah is the one who in Dan 9:27 "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
My questions:
-In Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus clearly addresses Jerusalem, which is "the Jewish people". So if according to you Matthew 23:37-39 and Daniel 9:27 are parallel passages, then Jesus made the covenant in Dan 9:27 only with Israel. However according to Daniel 9:27 the covenant is made with Many not only with Israel. How do you explain this discrepancy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If the rapture happens after the tribulation, then
-Our "blessed hope" to look forward would not be the "glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ", but to look forward for the tribulation events to start, which by no means look pretty. (Titus 2:13)

That depends on which side you are on. Christ would not write 7 letters to the Church and then abandon her (bride in waiting) without hope for any amount of time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The Church would see the time of Christ's arrival as the events of Re:10 describes His return and the 'little book' could comtain the names of the people who will be alive by the time the book is finished being read aloud.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The children of darkness see that same arrival as re:16 describes in all the vials. Once that is complete it takes 1,000 years for the 'named people' to be 'purified enough' to be presented to God as Holy Saints.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The rest of mankind is also there to stand before Almighty God in much the same way people first met Christ some 1,000 years earlier. One group is proud the other is humble.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The great tribulation mentioned in Re:7. The location described is the Great White Throne and the ones waving the palms are the same ones Christ decided would not be alive for the 1,000 years. The Book of Life opened at the Great White Throne has the names of all people who ever lived that were not called out on the day Christ arrived. Re:20 calls them 'the rest'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Continuing with your view:

quote:

I currently believe that half of the week is already gone, fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach. One can find that from a true interpretation of Dani'el 9:24-27; Matthew 23:37-39; Hebrews 9:1-10:22 in conjunction with Matthew 27:50-53; and Acts 1:9-11. See, Dani'el 9:24-27 is usually interpreted as though the "Antichrist" will be the one to make a covenant for one week (7 years) that will be broken in the middle of the week (3.5 years). But, through the grammar of English and of Hebrew, the one who makes the covenant is not the "prince that shall come," but is the "Messiah" of verse 26! This fact, in turn, strengthens my interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39.

I see the reason why you would rather say that the word "He" in verse 27 refers to the "Messiah" rather than to the "Antichrist". I think we can agree that verse 27 does not specifically designates who it is talking about. In a case like this I always compare the difficult verse to other verses and see how they interpret it. (I guess you do the same)

So, let's take a look at other scriptures in light of your 2 statements in which you say:
-The first half of Daniel's 70th week is already gone
-In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist.

In this case I see the following problems:

1. Daniel's 70th week according to your view is at least 2000 years long:
This would be inconsistent with Daniel 9:24 which says "Seventy weeks are determined". 69 of of the 70 weeks were 7 years long each.
My Question is: What scripture would back up that the 70th week drags out to be more than 2000 years long?

IMHO, none, the 70 was complete 3 1/2 years after the cross. Revelation promotes a 3 1/2 year tribulation just the same. What it (conflict) would most likely alter si some of the verses about the iron kingdom being misaligned to the verse it should harmonize with from Revelation. The 'gap between peter taking the Gospel to the Gentiles and when the Gentiles are judged on how well they listened is the end of that time. It can never be nailed down because the deception is not revealed until the moment of His return.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
2. If the first half of Daniel's 70th week is already gone, then according to Revelation the 7 Seals must have been opened already:
As I see the Seals, they do correspond to the coming of Antichrist and then to the battle of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38-39 chapters).
See the following link to the Sequential order of events in the Book of Revelation.
My question is: If the seals were already opened, then when and where in history was the Battle of Gog and Magog according to your view?
Or if you say that the battle of Gog and Magog does not correspond to the Seals, then where do you put this battle in the book of Revelation?

Gog and Magog do not exist today, they will not exist until the end of the first day of Christ's return. Gog is in the valley that Christ creates at His return, it is in some part of this valley that Israel puts the bones they gather just after the armies are destroyed by Christ. That is when Gog comes to exist. The ones those bones belong to are are earth when fire from God in Heaven (as far as I can tell)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The seals are an index to what the rest of Revelation covers. Daniel had the chapter about the satue, it is the same thing. Daniel covered all 4 parts of the statue in later chapters in his book. They list a sequence of events. God and the Holy Spirit kick things off, 1st seal. How that affects us is the event just prior to any trumpet sounding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then the covenant that Jesus makes is going to be for 1 week (7 Years to be consistent with Daniel 9:24).
According to Luk 22:20, Heb 8:13; 9:15 Jesus did make a covenant while He was on Earth, but that covenant is not for 7 years, but forever!
My question: What Kind of a covenant did Jesus make while he was here on Earth that lasts for 7 years?

The covenant mentioned is God's covenant with Israel, the the Messiah would come from their Nation. God allows the prophecies about the Messiah to unfold for just 7 years. After that they have to share Him with all Gentiles (Church)...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
4. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then according to the same verse "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". So according to you Jesus had the sacrifice and the oblation to cease when he was on Earth. This can not be true as the sacrifice and the oblation continued up until AD70. Keep in mind that, you said: "half of the week is already gone, fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach"
My question, what scripture backs up the continuation of the sacrifices for ~40 more years?

Look at a verse in Daniel 9 near the beginning. Daniel's prayer specified that God was the keeper of covenants, that holds true for the whole chapter. God confirms 'a covenant' for 7 years, on the day that marks 3 1/2 years Jesus makes the last blood sacrifice. My version has the next 3 1/2 yrs as being the time described right after, abominations including the continuation of blood sacrifices. The final day that marks 3 1/2 years is the day Peter had his vision.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
5. Your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39:
I see why you would feel good about your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39 if the Messiah is the one who in Dan 9:27 "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
My questions:
-In Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus clearly addresses Jerusalem, which is "the Jewish people". So if according to you Matthew 23:37-39 and Daniel 9:27 are parallel passages, then Jesus made the covenant in Dan 9:27 only with Israel. However according to Daniel 9:27 the covenant is made with Many not only with Israel. How do you explain this discrepancy?

That was addresses to the ones standing there, they will acknowledge Jesus as being the Messiah on the day He raises them from the grave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
…
Subject #1 (talking about who will enter into the Millennium in their Physical bodies)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Actually, while all believers will be raptured and given glorified bodies, not all unbelievers will be killed. Rev. 19:21 is part of Rev. 19:17-21:

Therefore, the "rest of them" is not talking about all the people all over the earth; it's talking about those who invaded Isra'el for the final battle for Isra'el and Yerushalayim. It does NOT mean that "all unbelievers will be killed."

According to you then the people who will enter into the Millenium in their physical bodies will be the unbelievers. Keep in mind that the unbelievers during the Tribulation will get the mark of the Beast (666)(Rev 13:15-17)

So in your opinion Jesus during the Millennium will reign over the people who have the 666 mark on them. If this were true, then the Bible would lie in Rev 14-9:10 where it clearly states what happens to those who accept the mark:
"If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"

According to Scripture the people with the 666 mark are to be tormented in the presence of the Lamb. Your view says the people with the 666 mark will be the citizens of Jesus' Earthly Kingdom. Can you explain this difference between the Bible and your view?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

While the Scriptures do not say that Yeshua`s ministry was exactly 3.5 years, we are given contextual clues that give us that conclusion:

First, Yochanan's baptism was done in Nahar haYarden (the River Jordan), and although it has several bends and turns, it is a fast moving river, especially during the rainy season, because it flows from Yam haKinneret (the Sea of Galilee, 685 feet below sea level) to Yam haMelach (the Salt Sea or the Dead Sea, 1300 feet below sea level) over a stretch of a little over 60 miles! That's a fall of about 10 feet a mile! The rainy season in Isra'el is from October to at least April and even to early May, the peak being in December, and the Yarden frequently overflows its banks, becoming a river on which one could go whitewater rafting! The dry season is from early May to September.

Thus, it would make sense that Yeshua` would have been baptized no later than September, which is one possible date for Yeshua`s birthday since some feel that he could have been born on Rosh haShannah (the Jewish New Year's Day, which is supposed to be the anniversary of the Creation), Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), or at the latest during Succot (the feast of Tabernacles or Booths). We know that He started His ministry close to His birthday. (Luke 3:23)

The Gospel of Yochanan (John) lists three Passovers which Yeshua` attended with His students (John 2:13; 5:1; 6:4), the fourth Pesach (Passover) being the one when He was crucifed (Matt. 26:2ff; Mark 14:1ff; Luke 22:1ff; John 11:55ff). Pesach is always celebrated on the 14th of the month Nisan in the Jewish calendar which corresponds roughly from March to April. How does that add up to you? Sounds like roughly 1/2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.5 years!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Therefore, the "rest of them" is not talking about all the people all over the earth; it's talking about those who invaded Isra'el for the final battle for Isra'el and Yerushalayim. It does NOT mean that "all unbelievers will be killed."

Furthermore, I do believe that it is slightly before the return of the Messiah to the ground in Isra'el that all of us believers will be given glorified bodies and then raptured. The whole point of the rapture is to get us to Isra'el with the returned Messiah to rescue (save) Isra'el from the marauders and slavers, murderers and rapists. Once again, the Messiah sends out His messengers to retrieve those who are His and fly them to Isra'el quickly! It's a mass transit system!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Well, granted, that is a popular misconception; however, there's a difference between "sealing the deal" and "taking possession"; Rev. 11:15 is about "sealing the deal," not about "taking possession!" The process of "taking possession," however, starts with the battle for Har-Megiddown. There are Scriptures that give us ADDITIONAL information that tell us that IT WILL TAKE TIME to claim "the rest of the planet":

1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

By comparing this passage with II Peter 3:3-13 and Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1, we can discover that verses 23 to 28 reflect the Millennium. If the LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death and death is destroyed AFTER the 1000 years, then throughout the Millennium, other enemies will be "handled."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This is why I further believe that Psalm 2 is a literal depiction of the Millennium:
Ps 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: <<the Lord hath said unto me, 'Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'>>
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
KJV (I've added the quotation devices and the colors to distinguish the quotations. Blue = the words of the Goyim [the UN], Purple = the words of GOD, Orange = the words of the decree, and Red = the words of GOD within the decree.)

This passage "represents" nothing; it "stands for" nothing; it "is analogous for" nothing! It is a LITERAL passage that will be LITERALLY be fulfilled during the Millennium.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Also, look at the parables ABOUT THE KINGDOM:

Matt 13:24-33, 37-52
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
...
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
KJV

These are FREQUENTLY misapplied to this age, but they are about the age to come, the Millennium! The words are repetitively "The kingdom of heaven is like unto ...!" That's not the "church," the "body of Christ," or even "Christendom!" It is the KINGDOM FROM THE SKY! That won't be here until the KING FROM THE SKY returns!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Thus, during the 1000 years--the Millennium--there will be "tares" or "look-alike weeds" or "children of the Wicked One" planted by the Devil in the Kingdom, along with the "good seed" or "wheat" or "children of the Kingdom" planted by the Son of man, who will be allowed to grow with the children of the Kingdom until the consummation of the Age--the end of the Millennium. These are the enemies which Yeshua` will subdue during the 1000 years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Furthermore, it's not until AFTER the Millennium that fish that are kosher and unkosher are brought to shore when the "net" (the Kingdom) is full, and the messengers shall come forth and separate the unkosher or wicked from the kosher or just and throw them into the "furnace of fire," the Lake of Fire and Sulfur.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Oh, and about Ezek. 39:4-6; that's not the whole quote! In context it becomes clear:

Ezek 39:1-20
1 “So you, human being, prophesy against Gog; say that Adonai ELOHIM says: ‘I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshekh and Tuval. 2 I will turn you around, lead you on and bring you from the far reaches of the north against the mountains of Isra’el. 3 But then I will knock your bow out of your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 You will fall on the mountains of Isra’el, you, your troops and all the peoples with you; I will give you to be eaten up by all kinds of birds of prey and by wild animals. 5 You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken,’ says Adonai ELOHIM.

6 “‘I will also send fire against Magog and against those living securely in the coastlands; then they will know that I am Adonai. 7 I will make my holy name known among my people Isra’el; I will not allow my holy name to be profaned any longer. Then the Goyim will know that I am Adonai, the Holy One in Isra’el. 8 Yes, this is coming, and it will be done,’ says Adonai ELOHIM; ‘this is the day about which I have spoken.

9 “‘Those living in Isra’el’s cities will go out and set fire to the weapons, to use as fuel — the shields, breastplates, bows, arrows, clubs and spears; they will use them for fire seven years; 10 so that they will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut down any from the forests; because they will use the weapons for fire. Thus they will plunder those who plundered them and rob those who robbed them,’ says Adonai ELOHIM.

11 “‘When that day comes, I will give Gog a place there in Isra’el for graves, the Travelers’ Valley, east of the sea; and it will block the travelers’ passage. There they will bury Gog and all his horde, and they will rename it the Valley of Hamon-Gog [horde of Gog]. 12 It will take the house of Isra’el seven months to bury them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 Yes, all the people of the land will be burying them; they will become famous for it. It will be a day for me to be glorified,’ says Adonai ELOHIM. 14 ‘They will then pick men for the continual duty of going through the land and burying with the travelers the corpses still lying out on the ground, in order to cleanse it; they will begin their search after the seven months. 15 As they go through the land, if anyone sees a human bone, he will put a marker next to it until the gravediggers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon-Gog. 16 Moreover, “Hamonah” [its horde] will be the name of a city. Thus will they cleanse the land.’

17 “As for you, human, Adonai ELOHIM says that you are to speak to all kinds of birds and to every wild animal as follows: ‘Assemble yourselves and come, gather yourselves from all around for the sacrifice I am preparing for you, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Isra’el, where you can eat flesh and drink blood! 18 You will eat the flesh of heroes and drink the blood of the earth’s princes — rams, lambs, goats and bulls, fattened in Bashan, all of them. 19 You will eat fat till you are gorged and drink blood till you are drunk at the sacrifice I have prepared for you. 20 At my table you will be satiated with horses, horsemen, heroes and every kind of warrior,’ says Adonai ELOHIM.
CJB

Therefore, GOD is not talking to the whole world; He is only talking about Isra'el and Magowg, the land of Gowg. He's telling him that he will gather him into the land of Isra'el with all their troops and then He will destroy both him and his troops and give their carcases to the scavengers. Verse 6, however, is saying there will also be a backlash into Magowg where its people will think they are safe from attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Oh, really? That's not the point. The point is that the Day of the Lord WILL come as a thief in the night and that we, as children of the light, should not LET it surprise us! Furthermore, it is implied that even one of the children of the light may not be watching and it WOULD surprise him or her! Paul said to the Thessalonians,...

1 Thess 5:4-6
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yeshua` told Yochanan to say to the church in Sardis,...

Rev 2:27
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
and to the readers of the Revelation,...

Rev 16:14-16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
KJV

You might notice, too, that the Great Day of El Elyon (God Almighty), which talks about Yeshua` coming as a thief, will be when He comes upon His enemies suddenly at the battle of Har-Megiddown--the Mountain or Tel of Megiddo on the mountain range southeast of the port city of Haifa and Mount Karmel where the Valley of Yezre'el takes a bend southward toward Yerushalayim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You DO realize that, by your calculation, the "third Ouai" will not come until the seventh trumpet, right? At that point all that's left are the seven bowl judgments to be poured out in rapid succession. So, how could that be 3.5 years?! No, drop the labels. A "woe" (Greek: ouai, an onomatapoeia as a cry of grief or pain or sorrow in mourning, pronounced "Ooo-ahh-eee!" sounding like our cry of "Why?!") is not tied to an event! It's a cry of lament that may be heard at ANY painful event! It's not the name of the seventh trumpet plague, so to speak; it's the cry of grief associated with the seventh trumpet plague, which will be Har-Megiddown as Yeshua` comes to declare war suddenly on those who have invaded Isra'el, particularly Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

While the Scriptures do not say that Yeshua`s ministry was exactly 3.5 years, we are given contextual clues that give us that conclusion:

First, Yochanan's baptism was done in Nahar haYarden (the River Jordan), and although it has several bends and turns, it is a fast moving river, especially during the rainy season, because it flows from Yam haKinneret (the Sea of Galilee, 685 feet below sea level) to Yam haMelach (the Salt Sea or the Dead Sea, 1300 feet below sea level) over a stretch of a little over 60 miles! That's a fall of about 10 feet a mile! The rainy season in Isra'el is from October to at least April and even to early May, the peak being in December, and the Yarden frequently overflows its banks, becoming a river on which one could go whitewater rafting! The dry season is from early May to September.

Thus, it would make sense that Yeshua` would have been baptized no later than September, which is one possible date for Yeshua`s birthday since some feel that he could have been born on Rosh haShannah (the Jewish New Year's Day, which is supposed to be the anniversary of the Creation), Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), or at the latest during Succot (the feast of Tabernacles or Booths). We know that He started His ministry close to His birthday. (Luke 3:23)

The Gospel of Yochanan (John) lists three Passovers which Yeshua` attended with His students (John 2:13; 5:1; 6:4), the fourth Pesach (Passover) being the one when He was crucifed (Matt. 26:2ff; Mark 14:1ff; Luke 22:1ff; John 11:55ff). Pesach is always celebrated on the 14th of the month Nisan in the Jewish calendar which corresponds roughly from March to April. How does that add up to you? Sounds like roughly 1/2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.5 years!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Therefore, the "rest of them" is not talking about all the people all over the earth; it's talking about those who invaded Isra'el for the final battle for Isra'el and Yerushalayim. It does NOT mean that "all unbelievers will be killed."

Furthermore, I do believe that it is slightly before the return of the Messiah to the ground in Isra'el that all of us believers will be given glorified bodies and then raptured. The whole point of the rapture is to get us to Isra'el with the returned Messiah to rescue (save) Isra'el from the marauders and slavers, murderers and rapists. Once again, the Messiah sends out His messengers to retrieve those who are His and fly them to Isra'el quickly! It's a mass transit system!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Well, granted, that is a popular misconception; however, there's a difference between "sealing the deal" and "taking possession"; Rev. 11:15 is about "sealing the deal," not about "taking possession!" The process of "taking possession," however, starts with the battle for Har-Megiddown. There are Scriptures that give us ADDITIONAL information that tell us that IT WILL TAKE TIME to claim "the rest of the planet":

1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

By comparing this passage with II Peter 3:3-13 and Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1, we can discover that verses 23 to 28 reflect the Millennium. If the LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death and death is destroyed AFTER the 1000 years, then throughout the Millennium, other enemies will be "handled."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This is why I further believe that Psalm 2 is a literal depiction of the Millennium:
Ps 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: <<the Lord hath said unto me, 'Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'>>
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
KJV (I've added the quotation devices and the colors to distinguish the quotations. Blue = the words of the Goyim [the UN], Purple = the words of GOD, Orange = the words of the decree, and Red = the words of GOD within the decree.)

This passage "represents" nothing; it "stands for" nothing; it "is analogous for" nothing! It is a LITERAL passage that will be LITERALLY be fulfilled during the Millennium.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Also, look at the parables ABOUT THE KINGDOM:

Matt 13:24-33, 37-52
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
...
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
KJV

These are FREQUENTLY misapplied to this age, but they are about the age to come, the Millennium! The words are repetitively "The kingdom of heaven is like unto ...!" That's not the "church," the "body of Christ," or even "Christendom!" It is the KINGDOM FROM THE SKY! That won't be here until the KING FROM THE SKY returns!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Thus, during the 1000 years--the Millennium--there will be "tares" or "look-alike weeds" or "children of the Wicked One" planted by the Devil in the Kingdom, along with the "good seed" or "wheat" or "children of the Kingdom" planted by the Son of man, who will be allowed to grow with the children of the Kingdom until the consummation of the Age--the end of the Millennium. These are the enemies which Yeshua` will subdue during the 1000 years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Furthermore, it's not until AFTER the Millennium that fish that are kosher and unkosher are brought to shore when the "net" (the Kingdom) is full, and the messengers shall come forth and separate the unkosher or wicked from the kosher or just and throw them into the "furnace of fire," the Lake of Fire and Sulfur.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Oh, and about Ezek. 39:4-6; that's not the whole quote! In context it becomes clear:

Ezek 39:1-20
1 “So you, human being, prophesy against Gog; say that Adonai ELOHIM says: ‘I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshekh and Tuval. 2 I will turn you around, lead you on and bring you from the far reaches of the north against the mountains of Isra’el. 3 But then I will knock your bow out of your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 You will fall on the mountains of Isra’el, you, your troops and all the peoples with you; I will give you to be eaten up by all kinds of birds of prey and by wild animals. 5 You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken,’ says Adonai ELOHIM.

6 “‘I will also send fire against Magog and against those living securely in the coastlands; then they will know that I am Adonai. 7 I will make my holy name known among my people Isra’el; I will not allow my holy name to be profaned any longer. Then the Goyim will know that I am Adonai, the Holy One in Isra’el. 8 Yes, this is coming, and it will be done,’ says Adonai ELOHIM; ‘this is the day about which I have spoken.

9 “‘Those living in Isra’el’s cities will go out and set fire to the weapons, to use as fuel — the shields, breastplates, bows, arrows, clubs and spears; they will use them for fire seven years; 10 so that they will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut down any from the forests; because they will use the weapons for fire. Thus they will plunder those who plundered them and rob those who robbed them,’ says Adonai ELOHIM.

11 “‘When that day comes, I will give Gog a place there in Isra’el for graves, the Travelers’ Valley, east of the sea; and it will block the travelers’ passage. There they will bury Gog and all his horde, and they will rename it the Valley of Hamon-Gog [horde of Gog]. 12 It will take the house of Isra’el seven months to bury them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 Yes, all the people of the land will be burying them; they will become famous for it. It will be a day for me to be glorified,’ says Adonai ELOHIM. 14 ‘They will then pick men for the continual duty of going through the land and burying with the travelers the corpses still lying out on the ground, in order to cleanse it; they will begin their search after the seven months. 15 As they go through the land, if anyone sees a human bone, he will put a marker next to it until the gravediggers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon-Gog. 16 Moreover, “Hamonah” [its horde] will be the name of a city. Thus will they cleanse the land.’

17 “As for you, human, Adonai ELOHIM says that you are to speak to all kinds of birds and to every wild animal as follows: ‘Assemble yourselves and come, gather yourselves from all around for the sacrifice I am preparing for you, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Isra’el, where you can eat flesh and drink blood! 18 You will eat the flesh of heroes and drink the blood of the earth’s princes — rams, lambs, goats and bulls, fattened in Bashan, all of them. 19 You will eat fat till you are gorged and drink blood till you are drunk at the sacrifice I have prepared for you. 20 At my table you will be satiated with horses, horsemen, heroes and every kind of warrior,’ says Adonai ELOHIM.
CJB

Therefore, GOD is not talking to the whole world; He is only talking about Isra'el and Magowg, the land of Gowg. He's telling him that he will gather him into the land of Isra'el with all their troops and then He will destroy both him and his troops and give their carcases to the scavengers. Verse 6, however, is saying there will also be a backlash into Magowg where its people will think they are safe from attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Oh, really? That's not the point. The point is that the Day of the Lord WILL come as a thief in the night and that we, as children of the light, should not LET it surprise us! Furthermore, it is implied that even one of the children of the light may not be watching and it WOULD surprise him or her! Paul said to the Thessalonians,...

1 Thess 5:4-6
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Yeshua` told Yochanan to say to the church in Sardis,...

Rev 2:27
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
and to the readers of the Revelation,...

Rev 16:14-16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
KJV

You might notice, too, that the Great Day of El Elyon (God Almighty), which talks about Yeshua` coming as a thief, will be when He comes upon His enemies suddenly at the battle of Har-Megiddown--the Mountain or Tel of Megiddo on the mountain range southeast of the port city of Haifa and Mount Karmel where the Valley of Yezre'el takes a bend southward toward Yerushalayim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
You DO realize that, by your calculation, the "third Ouai" will not come until the seventh trumpet, right? At that point all that's left are the seven bowl judgments to be poured out in rapid succession. So, how could that be 3.5 years?! No, drop the labels. A "woe" (Greek: ouai, an onomatapoeia as a cry of grief or pain or sorrow in mourning, pronounced "Ooo-ahh-eee!" sounding like our cry of "Why?!") is not tied to an event! It's a cry of lament that may be heard at ANY painful event! It's not the name of the seventh trumpet plague, so to speak; it's the cry of grief associated with the seventh trumpet plague, which will be Har-Megiddown as Yeshua` comes to declare war suddenly on those who have invaded Isra'el, particularly Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I will try to answer these in the order you’ve asked them by Subject number, and I’ve decided to do them one at a time to break it into smaller bites. I will get to each one quicker that way:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Actually, while all believers will be raptured and given glorified bodies, not all unbelievers will be killed. Rev. 19:21 is part of Rev. 19:17-21:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
So in your opinion Jesus during the Millennium will reign over the people who have the 666 mark on them. If this were true, then the Bible would lie in Rev 14-9:10 where it clearly states what happens to those who accept the mark:

No, when you said, “So in your opinion Jesus during the Millennium will reign over the people who have the 666 mark on them,” you are making the logical fallacy of a “straw man” argument. Don’t introduce “straw man” arguments—changing one’s words to a weak argument and then knocking it down, thinking you’ve killed a big one. They are unproductive, unbecoming, and not worthy of you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
By dichotomous thinking, you have come to an invalid conclusion; the all-or-nothing mentality has to be dropped. Not all unbelievers will have the 666 mark on them. You have assumed that … all unbelievers = those who have taken the mark. That’s NOT what the Scriptures say!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What it says is that this animal from the ground (which has two, small curved horns, like those on a yearling lamb, but hisses like a lizard) forces “all”—significant and insignificant, wealthy or not, free or slave—to receive this mark upon (Greek: epi) their right hand or upon (Greek: epi) their forehead, and that no one may buy or sell anything unless he has that mark, or the authority of the beast, or (Greek: ee, not kai) the number of his authority. There’s a lot of difference between “and” and “or!” Take it from a programmer! “And” would mean that one has to have all three in order to buy or sell; “or” means that one has to have ONE of the three! (This is just one of THOUSANDS of reasons why I don’t like to discuss Revelation! There’s just too many ways for a person to go wrong in interpretations!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Secondly, this also assumes that the second animal will have jurisdiction over the entire globe! There are Scriptures that would suggest otherwise:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Rev 14:9-11
SOMEBODY is being warned not to take the mark! This implies that there are people who have not!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Rev 16:10-11
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
KJV

The beast’s kingdom is not all inclusive because this plague singles out the beast’s kingdom as opposed to … what? Other kingdoms, perhaps?

REMEMBER! One must keep in mind that the Greek word “gee,” pronounced “gay,” can mean the soil, the ground, a field, a land, THE Land (i.e., of Isra’el), or the surface of the globe as in the ground everywhere! Only in the last case can it mean the entire planet.

Think agriculturally! They were a farming/ranching community. It’s highly unlikely they even knew that the planet was round! Thus, “all” may have referred to all those who lived in his own kingdom, just within his own jurisdiction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The Church would see the time of Christ's arrival as the events of Re:10 describes His return and the 'little book' could contain the names of the people who will be alive by the time the book is finished being read aloud.

This seems to me a little scripture stretching. Can you back up your interpretation with some other Bible verses?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The children of darkness see that same arrival as re:16 describes in all the vials. Once that is complete it takes 1,000 years for the 'named people' to be 'purified enough' to be presented to God as Holy Saints.

This is a lot of scripture stretching! With this you are implying that Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient payment for our sins and we need some kind of a purification. The Bible DOES NOT SAY Anything like this!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The rest of mankind is also there to stand before Almighty God in much the same way people first met Christ some 1,000 years earlier. One group is proud the other is humble.

Please back this up with scripture quotation!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The great tribulation mentioned in Re:7. The location described is the Great White Throne and the ones waving the palms are the same ones Christ decided would not be alive for the 1,000 years. The Book of Life opened at the Great White Throne has the names of all people who ever lived that were not called out on the day Christ arrived. Re:20 calls them 'the rest'.

The people mentioned in Rev 7 are the martyrs who will be killed during the Great Tribulation.
(And it's not that "Christ decided that they would not be alive for the Millennium"! May I ask where do you get these ideas from?)
The Great White Throne will be a judgment for the non believers, and they can not be identified with the people in white robes in Rev 7!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
IMHO, none, the 70 was complete 3 1/2 years after the cross. Revelation promotes a 3 1/2 year tribulation just the same. What it (conflict) would most likely alter si some of the verses about the iron kingdom being misaligned to the verse it should harmonize with from Revelation. The 'gap between peter taking the Gospel to the Gentiles and when the Gentiles are judged on how well they listened is the end of that time. It can never be nailed down because the deception is not revealed until the moment of His return.

This theory about the 70th 7 years does not line up with the book of Revelation at all. Just one example: The Battle of Armageddon is at the 2nd half of the 7 years of tribulation according to revelation. Can you please tell me from history, which battle took place at Armageddon during the next 3 1/2 years after the crucifixion of Christ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Gog and Magog do not exist today, they will not exist until the end of the first day of Christ's return. Gog is in the valley that Christ creates at His return, it is in some part of this valley that Israel puts the bones they gather just after the armies are destroyed by Christ. That is when Gog comes to exist. The ones those bones belong to are are earth when fire from God in Heaven (as far as I can tell)

According to you then, the battle of Gog and Magog will take place after Christ returns. Can you show me then in Revelation the Battle of Gog and Magog that matches with all the prophecies in Ezekiel 38-39?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The seals are an index to what the rest of Revelation covers. Daniel had the chapter about the satue, it is the same thing. Daniel covered all 4 parts of the statue in later chapters in his book. They list a sequence of events. God and the Holy Spirit kick things off, 1st seal. How that affects us is the event just prior to any trumpet sounding.

You say, that the first 3 1/2 years were fulfilled when Christ was here on Earth. You also say that the Seals is index for the rest of Revelation after Christ comes back.
Now, according to Revelation the Seals are in the first half of the 7 years, which according to you supposed to happen when Christ was here on Earth.
So, when are the Seals then? Are they an index for the rest of the Revelation, or were they fulfilled when Christ was here?
If you answer that the Seals were fulfilled when Christ was here, then you contradict yourself when you said, they are the index for the rest of Revelation.
If you answer that the Seals are the index of the rest of Revelation, then you contradict the Book of Revelation, which puts the Seals at the beginning of the 7 years!

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ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then the covenant that Jesus makes is going to be for 1 week (7 Years to be consistent with Daniel 9:24).
According to Luk 22:20, Heb 8:13; 9:15 Jesus did make a covenant while He was on Earth, but that covenant is not for 7 years, but forever!
My question: What Kind of a covenant did Jesus make while he was here on Earth that lasts for 7 years?

The covenant mentioned is God's covenant with Israel, the the Messiah would come from their Nation. God allows the prophecies about the Messiah to unfold for just 7 years. After that they have to share Him with all Gentiles (Church)...

Please back up with scripture that
-"The covenant mentioned is God's covenant with Israel" (need a quote from the New Testament, which says this!)
-"God allows the prophecies about the Messiah to unfold for just 7 years" (need a quote from the New Testament, which says this!)
-"After that they have to share Him with all Gentiles (Church)." (need a quote from the New Testament, which says this!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Look at a verse in Daniel 9 near the beginning. Daniel's prayer specified that God was the keeper of covenants, that holds true for the whole chapter. God confirms 'a covenant' for 7 years, on the day that marks 3 1/2 years Jesus makes the last blood sacrifice. My version has the next 3 1/2 yrs as being the time described right after, abominations including the continuation of blood sacrifices. The final day that marks 3 1/2 years is the day Peter had his vision.

Can you please show me, where this takes place in the New Testament:
-"God confirms 'a covenant' for 7 years"
Can you please show me in Revelation where this supposed to take place:
-"The final day that marks 3 1/2 years is the day Peter had his vision"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
That was addressed to the ones standing there, they will acknowledge Jesus as being the Messiah on the day He raises them from the grave.

-Who "will acknowledge Jesus as being the Messiah on the day He raises them from the grave"? Who is them? When will Jesus raise this group of people?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Here we disagree. This is what we can read in scripture:
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

So, when it says ALL, I understand ALL. If there was any doubt, then scripture goes further and defines, what ALL means: small and great, rich and poor, free and bond. All of these categories include everybody. If you think it does not, then please let me know which category is not covered!

Pressing on to define that the mark will be mandatory for ALL, scripture says that NO MAN (meaning nobody) will be able to buy or sell.
Question: Why would any non believer go through the hardship of not being able to buy or sell? They will have no reason not to accept the mark, as they will not care about it's Biblical implications.

So I still say, only the believers will have the reason not to accept the mark. And they will all be raptured according to the Post-Tribulational view, so the only people left in their physical bodies at this point would be the non believers, who will ALL have the mark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsnody2001

Roy, did you read my post #29?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #2 (Question of imminence)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No! This is a common claim, but by analogy, just as we can know approximately when a baby will be born and not know the exact day or the exact hour when the birth will happen, in the same way we can know approximately when Yeshua` will return without knowing the exact day or the hour! And, by the time they see the Messiah coming, there'd be no time! Believers won't need to be waiting at Har-Megiddown (since they'll be coming by "air mail"), and unbelievers won't believe He'll be coming! Those who desire the conquest of Isra'el will think themselves relatively unchallenged.

This question boils down to the point of taking the terms like 1260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years etc. literally or spiritually.
I interpret ALL of them literally, therefore I can say that exactly 1290 days after "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away" will be the Day of Jesus' return:
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." Daniel 12:11

If you say, that I can not know the day of Jesus' coming from the day when the sacrifice shall be taken away, then you must interpret ALL of the verses below spiritually. In this case, I ask you to explain the meaning of the verses below. And please remember: they are all closely related because of the time elements in them:

"... a time and times and the dividing of time" (Daniel 7:25)
"Seventy weeks ..." (Daniel 9:24)
"seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" (Daniel 9:25)
"threescore and two weeks" (Daniel 9:26)
"... one week: and in the midst of the week ..." (Daniel 9:27)
"... for a time, times, and an half" (Rev 12:7)
"... there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" (Daniel 12:11)
"...thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:12)
"... forty and two months" (Rev 11:2)
"... thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 11:3)
"... thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 12:6)
"... a time, and times, and half a time" (Rev 12:14)
"... forty and two months" (Rev 13:5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #3 (What is our blessed hope?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Most of the believers who believe in the "glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Rescuer Yeshua` haMashiach" have a strange sense of what to be expecting from the tribulation events! In every verse that talks about the "hope" ("assurance") of the resurrection also talk about the patience needed to wait for the day. If the events of the tribulation are between our current position in time and the second coming of the Messiah, we are instructed to look beyond the troubles that we may or may not have to endure to get through to the blessed hope. Thus, our hope is not the tribulation events, but beyond those to the actual coming of Yeshua` and the associated resurrection and the rapture to follow.

In light of your opinion, please explain the meaning of the following verse:
"I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #5 (GAP between the 69th and 70th week or GAP between the first and second half of the 70th week)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What's the difference between having the gap between the 69th week and the 70th week about 2000 years long (pretrib) or having the gap between the 69.5th week and the last half of the 70th week? Couldn't one consider that either the 69th week ended 2000 years too late or that the 70th week began 2000 years too early? The Scripture that backs up the GAP is not given for the pretrib, posttrib, or prewrath positions; I have Matthew 23:37-39 as the reason for the GAP! Yeshua` repaid their rejection of His offer to be their King with the desolation they were about to suffer for almost 2000 years.

The difference is whether or not scripture supports it or not:
Daniel said "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city". 69 out of the 70 weeks were 7 years long each. This is historical fact, can not be denied.
Daniel then states that "the Messiah will be cut off" then a whole bunch of events in verse 26.
Then he says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"

It is Daniel himself who inserts the Gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. I see no scriptural support at all for a 2000+ year long 70th week. If you do, then please remember RULE#1 and provide chapter and verse that supports your idea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #2 (Question of imminence)
This question boils down to the point of taking the terms like 1260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years etc. literally or spiritually.
I interpret ALL of them literally, therefore I can say that exactly 1290 days after "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away" will be the Day of Jesus' return:
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." Daniel 12:11

If you say, that I can not know the day of Jesus' coming from the day when the sacrifice shall be taken away, then you must interpret ALL of the verses below spiritually. In this case, I ask you to explain the meaning of the verses below. And please remember: they are all closely related because of the time elements in them:

"... a time and times and the dividing of time" (Daniel 7:25)
"Seventy weeks ..." (Daniel 9:24)
"seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" (Daniel 9:25)
"threescore and two weeks" (Daniel 9:26)
"... one week: and in the midst of the week ..." (Daniel 9:27)
"... for a time, times, and an half" (Rev 12:7)
"... there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" (Daniel 12:11)
"...thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:12)
"... forty and two months" (Rev 11:2)
"... thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 11:3)
"... thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 12:6)
"... a time, and times, and half a time" (Rev 12:14)
"... forty and two months" (Rev 13:5)

I also take them literally; therefore, I know that Dani’el’s book is NOT interpreted correctly in this light. Furthermore, I reject (and am thoroughly repulsed by the idea) that I “must interpret ALL of the verses below spiritually!” I REALLY HATE that word, “spiritually!” It’s not really “spiritual”; it’s “allegorical.” And, to me, that’s just another way to say, “The Scriptures can’t be right; it must mean something else.” Also, who’s to determine what that “something else” is? It’s just as bad as the hiercritics saying, for instance, that Yeshua` didn’t really walk on the water; it’s figurative for … who-knows-what!

Every Scripture that Yeshua` fulfilled in His first advent He fulfilled LITERALLY! So, by what right does one say that prophecies about our future won’t be fulfilled literally?!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
On the other hand, once a prophecy has been fulfilled, one should ATTACH the fulfillment in history with that prophecy and consider it DONE!

We don’t go around saying that “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” are the words of some prophet in our future, do we? (At least IMO, we shouldn’t!) Then why do we say that the activities of one Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Seleucid king who reigned the Seleucid Empire from 175 to 164 B.C. in Damascus, predicted as the “king of the north” in Daniel 11:21-45, will be fulfilled in some future ruler called “the Antichrist?” (By the way, we also know that the king of the south in those verses was Ptolemy VI of Egypt.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
In the same way, the numbers quoted in Dani’el 12:5-13 need to have their fulfillments ATTACHED to the prophecy!

Dan 12:5-13
5 Then I, Dani’el, looked; and I saw in front of me two others, one on this bank of the river and the other on its other bank. 6 One of them asked the man dressed in linen who was above the water of the river, “How long will these wonders last?” 7 The man dressed in linen who was above the water of the river raised his right and left hands toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times and a half, and that it will be when the the power of the holy people is no longer being shattered that all these things will end.

8 I heard this, but I couldn’t understand what it meant; so I asked, “Lord, what will be the outcome of all this?” 9 But he said, “Go your way, Dani’el; for these words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will purify, cleanse and refine themselves; but the wicked will keep on acting wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand. But those with discernment will understand. 11 From the time the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 How blessed will be anyone who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But you, go your way until the end comes. Then you will rest and rise for your reward, at the end of days.”
CJB

The key words are “when the power of the holy people is no longer being shattered that all these things will end.” I believe that this will be at the time of the resurrection when the times of the Goyim are over.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Oh, and verse 11 does NOT say that the 1,290 days will COMMENCE when “the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that causes desolation is set up.” It’s just simply saying that there will still be 1,290 days (and 1,335 days) LEFT of the count AFTER “the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that causes desolation is set up.”

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Battyus,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #3 (What is our blessed hope?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Most of the believers who believe in the "glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Rescuer Yeshua` haMashiach" have a strange sense of what to be expecting from the tribulation events! In every verse that talks about the "hope" ("assurance") of the resurrection also talk about the patience needed to wait for the day. If the events of the tribulation are between our current position in time and the second coming of the Messiah, we are instructed to look beyond the troubles that we may or may not have to endure to get through to the blessed hope. Thus, our hope is not the tribulation events, but beyond those to the actual coming of Yeshua` and the associated resurrection and the rapture to follow.

In light of your opinion, please explain the meaning of the following verse:
"I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10)

In a nutshell, our “blessed hope” is the RESURRECTION! The meaning of Revelation 3:10 is not that difficult.

Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
KJV

The Greek of this verse is…

10 Hoti eteereesas ton logon tees hupomonees mou, kagoo se teereesoo ek tees hooras tou peirasmou tees mellousees erchesthai epi tees oikoumenees holees peirasai tous katoikountas epi tees gees.

10 Hoti = Because
eteereesas = you-(sing.)-have-guarded (by keeping an eye on)
ton = the
logon = message
tees = of-the; about-the
hupomonees = cheerful-(or-hopeful)-endurance
mou, = of-me,; of-mine,; my,
kagoo = I-too
se = you-(sing.)
teereesoo = I-will-guard (by keeping an eye on)
ek = out-from
tees = the
hooras = hour
tou = of-the
peirasmou = putting-to-proof
tees = the; which
mellousees = is-about
erchesthai = to-come; to-go
epi = upon
tees = the
oikoumenees = household; residence
holees = whole; all
peirasai = to-test
tous = the-ones
katoikountas = who-reside
epi = upon
tees = the
gees. = earth.

10 Because you-(sing.)-have-guarded the message about-the cheerful-endurance of-me, I-too will-guard you-(sing.) out-from the hour of-the putting-to-proof which is-about to-come upon the whole residence to-test the-ones who-reside upon the earth.

To “guard” implies that the guarded will still be in a vulnerable location albeit protected by the guard. This verse MOST ASSUREDLY does NOT say that the guarded will be taken off the earth!

Furthermore, this time of testing does NOT use the same Greek word for “tribulation!” To the contrary, the word is “peirasmou” meaning “a putting to the test.” In other locations, such as Matthew 24, the word is “thlipsis” meaning “pressure.”

In the Messiah’s love,
Roy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, again, Battyus.

I’ll be skipping Subject #4, and we both know why. We should KNOW about the Greek and Hebrew words and their definitions for clarity, but we should not use SPECIFIC words that are OVERUSED as labels. The words had meaning; labels tend to lose their meaning. Furthermore, labels are sometimes an indication of a chance English common word used in translation when the Hebrew or the Greek used two entirely different words.

On to Subject #5:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #5 (GAP between the 69th and 70th week or GAP between the first and second half of the 70th week)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What's the difference between having the gap between the 69th week and the 70th week about 2000 years long (pretrib) or having the gap between the 69.5th week and the last half of the 70th week? Couldn't one consider that either the 69th week ended 2000 years too late or that the 70th week began 2000 years too early? The Scripture that backs up the GAP is not given for the pretrib, posttrib, or prewrath positions; I have Matthew 23:37-39 as the reason for the GAP! Yeshua` repaid their rejection of His offer to be their King with the desolation they were about to suffer for almost 2000 years.

The difference is whether or not scripture supports it or not:
Daniel said "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city". 69 out of the 70 weeks were 7 years long each. This is historical fact, can not be denied.
Daniel then states that "the Messiah will be cut off" then a whole bunch of events in verse 26.
Then he says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"

It is Daniel himself who inserts the Gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. I see no scriptural support at all for a 2000+ year long 70th week. If you do, then please remember RULE#1 and provide chapter and verse that supports your idea.

See, here’s another instance of using a word as a label. “Week” is not to be used as a unit. It is a Hebrew word “shavuwa`” that simply means “seven,” or rather, “sevened.” Here’s what Strong’s Greek dictionary has to say:

OT:7620 shabuwa` (shaw-boo'-ah); or shabua` (shaw-boo'-ah); also (feminine) shebu`ah (sheb-oo-aw'); properly, passive participle of OT:7650 as a denominative of OT:7651; literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):
KJV - seven, week.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

(Note: Strong’s makes no distinction between the dotted “bet,” transliterated and sounded as a “B,” and the undotted “vet,” transliterated and sounded as a “V.” The Hebrew letters are, however, shin-vet-vav-ayin. With the vowel pointing included, that would be shin-qamets-vet-shureq-ayin-patach, where the “shureq” is a dotted “vav.” This would be transliterated and sounded as “sh-aa-v-uw-a-`,” where the “ayin” [`] and “patach” [a] sounds are switched at the end of a word.)

Thus, it is a GROUP of entities, not a single entity. Thus, we shouldn’t be using it as “70 apples,” but rather as “70 decades” or “70 tens,” and just as we would say that “70 tens” means “70 x 10,” so we should think of “70 sevens” as “70 x 7.” It is because we know (a) when Cyrus the Great (and later Artaxerxes II) first issued a decree and (b) when Yeshua` the Messiah was here from history that we make the connection that this “70 x 7” probably refers to years, although the text of Dani’el’s book never says!

Therefore, they are not labels or tags that can’t be broken; they are NUMBERS that MAY be divided. In fact, pretrib advocates KNOW this because they claim that the “Antichrist” will abolish the sacrifice and set up an abomination in the Temple in the MIDDLE of the week, or halfway through the “seven.” So, even though they don’t separate the two halves from each other chronologically, they do separate them in character, using the math of 7 / 2 = 3.5 years!

To some, this may seem to be merely semantics, but they are IMPORTANT semantics when a pretrib advocate makes the claim that a “week can’t be broken with a time gap between the two halves.”

In the Messiah’s love,
Roy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
Subject #6 (When are the Seals opened: first or second half of the Tribulation. Also where is the Battle of Gog and Magog in Revelation)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
2. If the first half of Daniel's 70th week is already gone, then according to Revelation the 7 Seals must have been opened already:
As I see the Seals, they do correspond to the coming of Antichrist and then to the battle of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38-39 chapters).
See the following link to the Sequential order of events in the Book of Revelation.
My question is: If the seals were already opened, then when and where in history was the Battle of Gog and Magog according to your view?
Or if you say that the battle of Gog and Magog does not correspond to the Seals, then where do you put this battle in the book of Revelation?

Well, the problem is in your words, "As I see the Seals." That's interjecting your INTERPRETATION of the seven seals on the actual opening of the seals and is probably based on the idea that Rev. 4:1 is talking about the "rapture." But, if you will notice, ...

Rev 4:1
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
KJV

... the words are directed to Yochanan ONLY and nothing else in this verse even remotely suggests that this might be when ALL of the saints are taken up!

However, if Revelation 4:1 is NOT the rapture, then the opening of the seven seals does not necessarily have a triggering event and therefore may begin at any time. Furthermore, there is no definitive need for the rider of the white horse to be the Antichrist (as some have suggested)! Nothing in the text requires that! So, there's nothing to say that the opening of the seals is still in the future or may have started already!

I used the term "As I see the Seals" as a polite way of expressing my opinion. I could have started like this:
"The Seals correspond to the coming of Antichrist and then to the battle of Gog and Magog", so please interpret my sentence without the "As I see the Seals" part.

I'll continue without polite expressions :)

The Seals are opened in Revelation Chapter 6, which is 2 chapters later of Chapter 4. So when you assume that I related the timing of the Seals to the "alleged rapture in chapter 4,", then you are making a mistake.

According to the Bible the Seals are opened during the first half of the tribulation. You ignore this and say that the first 3.5 years are already gone, but the seals could come later. Lets invoke RULE#1 and please provide me scripture that puts the Seals in the second 3.5 years!

Also, you misunderstood my question: I asked you to show me, where you put the Battle of Gog and Magog in the book of Revelation. Please answer this specifically and don't just say, that "the seals can be at any time"! (In other words give me chapter and verse in Revelation where the Ezekiel 38-39 battle takes place)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Battyus
…
Roy, I've truly enjoyed the Hebrew lesson, thank you very much!

As we've talked about the literal interpretation of the "1260 days", "42 months", "time times and a half", etc expressions I see no reason why the 70th seven would NOT be 7 years long. Additionally, 69 of the 70 sevens were 7 years long each (why would it change for the 70th seven?)

My original question was: can you obey your RULE #1 and support with scripture your idea about the 2000+ years long "seven" with chapter and verse numbers?

May you have a blessed day,
Battyus