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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 10:15:37 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ciglorious
Indeed, God gives repentance. Romans 2:4 declares: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
God may lead us into a postion to repent, but the person does the repentaning.
Unless you are a Calvinist, then you might think differently.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 10:18:42 AM
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ciglorious
Posts: 32
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Only a converted heart, soul, and mind bears fruit such as repentance, forgiveness, worship, salvation.... and ultimately eternal life.
God gives and works out all things that convert the heart, soul and mind. If He withholds any of such things that convert, there can never be a good, or acceptable, and/or a perfect conversion. He has the right to give or withhold as He wishes.
The only work that is expected of a sinner is called believe. But believing God without receiving all things for life and godliness is vanity: let us believe God and let us obtain all things He gives according to His pleasure. It is very important that our believing God compliments the receipt of all things of God. Satan believes God but does not have all things of God; he trembles.
If believing is the work required for a man to do in order that he obtains the ultimate gift of eternal life, how much less can believing God also lead to the converting of a man's heart.
So, we obtain His word, testimony, and works. Then we believe Him for the effective manifestation of those things in us. Only by obtining His things and believing God can we bear the fruit from the effective manifestation of His word, testimony and works in us.
Conversion of the heart, forgiveness, worship, salvation... and ultimately eternal life are fruit from effective manifestation of His word, testimony and works in us who believe.
drmark, God cannot sin. His grace that saves is not capricious. We have to be very careful about what you say or write.
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Grace and peace from God and from the Christ unto all!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 10:28:17 AM
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ciglorious
Posts: 32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: ciglorious
Indeed, God gives repentance. Romans 2:4 declares: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
God may lead us into a postion to repent, but the person does the repentaning.
Unless you are a Calvinist, then you might think differently.
Thanks
RC
Of course!
God gives us the tool for repentance. It is left for the sinner to believe God and repent with the tool He has given.
But no sinner can repent without the tools He provides. Same goes for forgiveness: He gives us the tool with which we are able to forgive as He does.
By himself alone and without God providing the tool, no man can forgive as God does. Yet, there are some men who won't forgive with the tool God has provided them. Such men won't be forgiven of their sins.
Btw, I am NOT interested in all those labels.... calvinist, arminian, or whatever. I don't subscribe to all such labels at all. I am of the Lord Jesus Christ, period.
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Grace and peace from God and from the Christ unto all!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 10:34:12 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5594
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quote:
God gives us the tool for repentance. It is left for the sinner to believe God and repent with the tool He has given. Okay, cig, thank you for that timely clarification. The "tool" you are referring to is called prevenient grace. If you took some time to read the teachings of some of those "labels", you might better understand this "tool".
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 11:00:09 AM
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ciglorious
Posts: 32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
God gives us the tool for repentance. It is left for the sinner to believe God and repent with the tool He has given. Okay, cig, thank you for that timely clarification. The "tool" you are referring to is called prevenient grace. If you took some time to read the teachings of some of those "labels", you might better understand this "tool".
Good! Important thing to note is that God gives us all things (both tools and fruit) with which we convert, repent, worship... and do anything good, acceptable, or perfect according to His standards.
Yes, one of the tools is called grace. Faith is also a tool, so are love and perfection His tools capable of converting a heart, soul or mind.
Btw, grace is grace. Ultimately, grace saves. Save from what? Save from destruction, distress, desolation, and anguish. All corruptions in the soul, tribulations, and temptations qualify in one, some or all of those categories. That is what grace is for... to save the soul from all such categories. The principal Spirit of grace is called the Fear of God: He brings about peace as the fruit, thus saving the soul.
There are no types of grace such that one does save while the other cannot. Prevenient and/or whatever, we should never adopt carnal constructions or definitions to suit particular doctrines of men. We obtain grace from Jesus Christ; grace and truth came by Him.
You write very carelessly and arrogantly, drmark. There is no "understanding" your label can give you "better" than above by the Spirit of grace in Jesus Christ. I don't need your "better understanding" from a label other than Jesus Christ.
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Grace and peace from God and from the Christ unto all![/color]
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 11:02:51 AM
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drmark
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quote:
You write very carelessly and arrogantly, drmark. I'm impressed you have the skills to identify these qualities, cig. God bless you and have a great day in the Lord!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/24/2010 3:57:27 PM
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Jersey79
Posts: 81
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jersey79
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that God always forgives those who are truly repentant, but that those who have committed this sin will never repent again? I think God does always forgive according to scripture...well He forgives those to whom he gives repentance. But since he's the one who gives repentance He can withhold it from these people and they will never want to repent. For by definition the desire to repent and to ask forgiveness and turn from your sin is repentance.
God gives repentance; please expalin?
Thanks
RC
i should of said grants repentance....
some people he grants repentance and others he doesn't. Those who are in the Hebrews 6:4 boat he doesn't grant it. Those in the James 5:19 crowd, He does. It's wierd how these verses are almost saying completely opposite things. In James it like, you who are in the church go out and seek those who were formerly walking with you and have now wandered away and convert them back. In Hebrews it's like, once they have gone to far you can never bring them back. So there is this line you don't want to cross. To answer your question:
2 Timothy 2:25
25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
among others.....
I think here is a backwards way of being encourged that you can always come back to God as long as you want to:
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying,
"Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
9 He said, "Go and tell this people:
"‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
So if you want to come back He'll always allow you. But if you aren't granted repetance then you won't want to. At least that's the way I understand it. I can't imagine anyone wanting to return to Christ and Christ saying "Nope, sorry I won't let you repent."
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/24/2010 4:04:20 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5594
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
i should of said grants repentance....
some people he grants repentance and others he doesn't. You've completely lost me on this, jersey79. What is the difference between "God grants repentance" and "God gives repentance"? How do you understand "repentance" as it relates to God?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/30/2010 7:59:09 PM
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Jersey79
Posts: 81
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
i should of said grants repentance....
some people he grants repentance and others he doesn't. You've completely lost me on this, jersey79. What is the difference between "God grants repentance" and "God gives repentance"? How do you understand "repentance" as it relates to God?
I guess I'm a bit lost to. i thought the above verse was self explanatory (in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth.) We are to pray that God "grants"/gives people repentance (change of heart/mind leading to a change of attitude and action) so that they come to their senses, turn to him and are saved. My understand is as that verse says we are hoping for God to do something "lead the person to repentance."
It would seem like those in Hebrews are beyond God doing this for them. I guess this is the reformed view and you are not reformed so you think it means something else and that's the confusion?
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 4/7/2010 12:43:38 AM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
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quote:
Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Hebrews 10: 24-26
These verses greatly disturb me. It kinda sounds like if you make a mistake after accepting Christ as your Savior, you are doomed.
I know I accepted Christ as my savior over 10 years ago...and for a while, I lived a Christian life that had me feeling close to God. Then I slipped away from God and have sinned many times. I keep searching for answers...was I truly saved? how do I know? I continually pray for confidence in my salvation but it seems that God is silent. What am I doing wrong?
Many thanks to all who can give me a little guidance in where to go with my search.
Bamatina,
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 10:24-27
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
These verses don’t address backsliding, simply slipping back into the world and sinning like the unsaved. These verses are overt rejection of and rebellion against God. They aren’t something we could do accidentally.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 4/10/2010 3:53:10 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ciglorious
God gives us the tool for repentance. It is left for the sinner to believe God and repent with the tool He has given.
But no sinner can repent without the tools He provides. Same goes for forgiveness: He gives us the tool with which we are able to forgive as He does.
Yes, and that tool is called free will. And with it one can choose God, or choose to continue to serve the flesh.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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well, I'm glad to do my own repenting, it frees me to experience the grace of God that somehow I missed by missing the mark.
