RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories more legit than the others around the world?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/15/2010 3:42:26 PM
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Dante_Alighieri
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quote:
Let me explain why it is not my burden. Scripture is fully capable of demonstrating its own truth.
Read Scripture. If it convinces you, I have no burden of proof. (I'm guessing you already have read the Scripture. This is for the benefit of any lurkers who have not.)
There are those who read the entire scripture and remain unconvinced. I conclude, from Scripture, that God has not called them to be believers. For me to undertake to prove Scripture to them would be a fool's errand. It's not my burden.
Alright, well now allow me to explain why that is wrong: It is circular reasoning.
Dante
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/17/2010 7:42:02 AM
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RSchorne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
There are those who read the entire scripture and remain unconvinced. I conclude, from Scripture, that God has not called them to be believers.
I adore this way of thinking.
If He has not called them to be believers (in His love and mercy), what has He called them to be?
If not fodder for Hell and an example for those precious few He has (in His infinite loive and mercy) called to be believers?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/17/2010 8:16:48 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
There are those who read the entire scripture and remain unconvinced. I conclude, from Scripture, that God has not called them to be believers.
I adore this way of thinking.
Compared to what?
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/17/2010 12:42:44 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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I understand, I think, what you are saying about the Bible, Strider. That the Bible is truth, and as such, stands or falls on its own. And that refusal to believe the Bible isn't - in the deepest sense - a creation vs. evolution issue. It's a belief vs. unbelief issue.
That is why, when all the evidence - real or not - has been stripped away, one question has to be answered: Is God or isn't God? And I am not sure that proof or lack of proof really has anything to do with that.
In my heart, the Genesis creation and flood stories are true because the God I profess to believe in says they are true. I would, honestly, love for there to be some irrefutable, incontrovertible, detailed blueprint of exactly how and when he did it with visual aids and a really good PowerPoint. Because then, the flesh part of me could say, "See! I told you God was God!" But since we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, that tells me that He isn't going to do that.
As my Dad used to say, we'll see how it all shakes out in 100 years.
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Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/17/2010 9:01:39 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 759
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
I understand, I think, what you are saying about the Bible, Strider. That the Bible is truth, and as such, stands or falls on its own. And that refusal to believe the Bible isn't - in the deepest sense - a creation vs. evolution issue. It's a belief vs. unbelief issue.
Thank you. The people who criticize this as circular just don't get it. And there isn't any particular reason why they should. And I continue to pray that God will choose to open the eyes of some of them.
If anyone here came to Christ as an adult, that person doesn't need me to explain the difference between looking at the Bible with unbelieving eyes and looking at the Bible with believing eyes.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/17/2010 10:11:07 PM
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drmark
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quote:
And I continue to pray that God will choose to open the eyes of some of them. And I continue to pray that God will provide His grace to enable those who freely choose to open their eyes and see Him.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/18/2010 1:08:12 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2619
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
There are those who read the entire scripture and remain unconvinced. I conclude, from Scripture, that God has not called them to be believers.
I adore this way of thinking.
If He has not called them to be believers (in His love and mercy), what has He called them to be?
If not fodder for Hell and an example for those precious few He has (in His infinite loive and mercy) called to be believers?
That's an easy one:
"18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? " - Romans 9:18-24
http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/romans/9.html
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/19/2010 10:52:42 AM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
As my Dad used to say, we'll see how it all shakes out in 100 years.
Had he said that 100 years ago, I wonder what we would be thinking...
Things haven't been shaking out too well for biblical literalism.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/19/2010 10:58:30 AM
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heremainsfaithful
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Actually, he wasn't being that nice. He was thinking of the whole 100 years from now when everyone who is alive today stands before God and finds out who is right. He wasn't mean by nature, but as a professor with a PhD in kinesiology, he sorta got...tired of the insults after awhile.
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/19/2010 11:25:03 AM
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creaton
Posts: 180
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
Actually, he wasn't being that nice.
Oh, I am sure.
quote:
He was thinking of the whole 100 years from now when everyone who is alive today stands before God and finds out who is right.
Or rather in 100 years when everyone is a disintegrasted corpse.
quote:
He wasn't mean by nature, but as a professor with a PhD in kinesiology, he sorta got...tired of the insults after awhile.
I'm not sure how having a PhD in kinesiology gave your father any special insight into either evolution or theology.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/19/2010 11:56:03 AM
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creaton
Posts: 180
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
It's sort of like bankers and philosophers deciding that they know more about what is best for education than a teacher with a masters and 15 years' experience actually in public schools. But people do that all the time 
Indeed they do.
I believe there once was a day when teachers taught, bankers banked, and philosophers philosophized, and they each understood that the other is much better at what they do than they themselves are, and so recognized that it was not their place to try to tell the other what they should be doing.
Whatever happened to those good old days?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/20/2010 3:38:31 PM
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RSchorne
Posts: 157
Joined: 1/9/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
There are those who read the entire scripture and remain unconvinced. I conclude, from Scripture, that God has not called them to be believers.
I adore this way of thinking.
If He has not called them to be believers (in His love and mercy), what has He called them to be?
If not fodder for Hell and an example for those precious few He has (in His infinite loive and mercy) called to be believers?
That's an easy one:
"18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? " - Romans 9:18-24
http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/romans/9.html
While this thread is about how Genesis stacks up against the other religious creation texts, this idea (though irrelevant to the OP), is very interesting.
"He has mercy on whomever He wills and hardens whomever he wills."
So much for free will.
And we, as mere clay in the potters hands, are helpless vessels.
Do you not see why we, who find no greater veracity in your sacred text than any other, would find this a barbaric idea?
It certainly makes me a little puzzled as to why anyone would want to worship such a god.
Unless your primary motivation is fear.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/21/2010 12:40:28 PM
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creaton
Posts: 180
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
What happened to the good old days indeed......maybe arrogant nosy blame-shifting? Sorry, my teacherness got a little out of control there 
I hear ya...
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/21/2010 4:46:00 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 759
Joined: 4/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
There are those who read the entire scripture and remain unconvinced. I conclude, from Scripture, that God has not called them to be believers.
I adore this way of thinking.
If He has not called them to be believers (in His love and mercy), what has He called them to be?
If not fodder for Hell and an example for those precious few He has (in His infinite loive and mercy) called to be believers?
That's an easy one:
"18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? " - Romans 9:18-24
http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/romans/9.html
While this thread is about how Genesis stacks up against the other religious creation texts, this idea (though irrelevant to the OP), is very interesting.
"He has mercy on whomever He wills and hardens whomever he wills."
So much for free will.
And we, as mere clay in the potters hands, are helpless vessels.
Do you not see why we, who find no greater veracity in your sacred text than any other, would find this a barbaric idea?
It certainly makes me a little puzzled as to why anyone would want to worship such a god.
Unless your primary motivation is fear.
Some time ago, in another thread, I cautioned against the limitations of first order logic. I think the paradox you see between divine sovereignty and free will is, in fact a first order logic paradox.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/23/2010 7:01:52 AM
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RSchorne
Posts: 157
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Some time ago, in another thread, I cautioned against the limitations of first order logic. I think the paradox you see between divine sovereignty and free will is, in fact a first order logic paradox.
So please explain.
Are we sovereign to the will of God, mere potter's clay as in the wonderful (horrifying) quote from ManimalX or do we have free will?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/23/2010 10:50:19 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 759
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Some time ago, in another thread, I cautioned against the limitations of first order logic. I think the paradox you see between divine sovereignty and free will is, in fact a first order logic paradox.
So please explain.
Are we sovereign to the will of God, mere potter's clay as in the wonderful (horrifying) quote from ManimalX or do we have free will?
Both.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 2/23/2010 3:04:39 PM
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creaton
Posts: 180
Joined: 9/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Some time ago, in another thread, I cautioned against the limitations of first order logic. I think the paradox you see between divine sovereignty and free will is, in fact a first order logic paradox.
So please explain.
Are we sovereign to the will of God, mere potter's clay as in the wonderful (horrifying) quote from ManimalX or do we have free will?
Both.
Then I, for one, fail to see any sort of logical error.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/2/2010 10:52:52 PM
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GREATHIWAY
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quote:
quote:
Let me explain why it is not my burden. Scripture is fully capable of demonstrating its own truth.
Read Scripture. If it convinces you, I have no burden of proof. (I'm guessing you already have read the Scripture. This is for the benefit of any lurkers who have not.)
There are those who read the entire scripture and remain unconvinced. I conclude, from Scripture, that God has not called them to be believers. For me to undertake to prove Scripture to them would be a fool's errand. It's not my burden.
Well If we were talking about somthing more abstract such are what god is or whats heaven like, then Yes Scripture alone might be capable of demonstrating self-evident truths.
But We are talking about an account of creation and truth is we have an actual state of the world that it should be in agreement with.
If scripture said god made the moon of green cheese , could that stand on its own as truth? No, We can actually go to moon and see what is it made of.
In the case of genesis as with many creation stories we have accounts of events that eitheir have no evidence or plainly contradict the evidence we do have. So Why believe this account over others?
For example Gen ch1 say the earth was created before the sun and stars (false) Birds before land animals (false).
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/3/2010 8:09:52 AM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
The people who criticize this as circular just don't get it. And there isn't any particular reason why they should. And I continue to pray that God will choose to open the eyes of some of them.
Oh, the elitist arrogance... 
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/3/2010 8:11:30 AM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GREATHIWAY
For example Gen ch1 say the earth was created before the sun and stars (false) Birds before land animals (false).
No, no, no - see, you are just reading it 'the wrong way.' If you read it the 'right' way, it all makes wonderful perfect sense.
Or at least that is what I usually get told when I mention this.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/4/2010 2:41:13 PM
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DanJames
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Or it could be that we are reading it just fine, and it's correct. Observing that the moon is made of moon stuff and not green cheese is different than determining the reason why birds and land animals are in different geologic strata. The Genesis Creation story is more legit than others because it was authored by God, and it is therefore as reliable a witness as God himself.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/5/2010 12:14:41 PM
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GREATHIWAY
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" Observing that the moon is made of moon stuff and not green cheese is different than determining the reason why birds and land animals are in different geologic strata."
Yes it is different still we would expect to find atleast some birds under the oldest land animals, or be able to date these fossils in some way that would allow us to think birds came first. I have not seen any such dating method.
"The Genesis Creation story is more legit than others because it was authored by God"
Yes but that is the claim in question. Why should we judge only YHWH to be god? This story would seem to rule out this possiblity. Unless your saying YHWY=god is true apriori and even if all evidence disagrees and we cant understand how it can be true then it is still us and our understand that is wrong in every case about YHWH but still right to rule out other gods.
I consider this to be a deeply dishonest way of thinking.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/5/2010 3:54:08 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 2378
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
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quote:
Why should we judge only YHWH to be god?
I don't see any reason whatsoever why you should. I'm only telling you that I do, so, it makes perfect (and honest) sense that I consider His revelation to be reliable.
quote:
Unless your saying YHWY=god is true apriori and even if all evidence disagrees and we cant understand how it can be true then it is still
Not understanding God is pretty normal... I wouldn't have much respect for a God that fit easily into my own brain. There are ordinary concrete things that I don't grasp. I can't even spell! Why would I presume to grasp God who transcends my own being by a million times?
And mis-interpretation of empirical evidence into a flawed scientific model is something that people often do... even if they include 'all' the evidence.
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