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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 8:03:42 AM
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gcsjr
Posts: 537
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
Private insurance companies are very good at fighting waste and fraud because they have to, their profit margins are not that great
Sadly, you're buying into another myth that is being perpetuated by those fighting healthcare reform.
When you look at the largest for-profit insurance companies their profit margins are right inline with the profit margins of the S&P 500 overall. Here are the actual profit margin numbers for the largest for-profit health insurance companies (from Yahoo Finance: Health Insurer Margins):
AETNA: 6.17%
CIGNA: 7.21%
United Healthcare: 7.3%
WellPoint: 7.34%
Wal-Mart: 5.87%
Dell: 4.55%
Even if you look at the for-profit insurance sector overall, the profit margin for that industry is 5.35%, which is comparable to Wal-Mart's and is in line with the S&P 500 overall (which typically runs from about 5% to 7%).
The myth that health insurers have thin margins is based on the industry overall, including non-profit insurance companies (who aren't primarily in the business of generating a profit).
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 9:13:29 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 7672
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
quote:
Private insurance companies are very good at fighting waste and fraud because they have to, their profit margins are not that great
Sadly, you're buying into another myth that is being perpetuated by those fighting healthcare reform.
When you look at the largest for-profit insurance companies their profit margins are right inline with the profit margins of the S&P 500 overall. Here are the actual profit margin numbers for the largest for-profit health insurance companies (from Yahoo Finance: Health Insurer Margins):
AETNA: 6.17%
CIGNA: 7.21%
United Healthcare: 7.3%
WellPoint: 7.34%
Wal-Mart: 5.87%
Dell: 4.55%
Even if you look at the for-profit insurance sector overall, the profit margin for that industry is 5.35%, which is comparable to Wal-Mart's and is in line with the S&P 500 overall (which typically runs from about 5% to 7%).
Those seem like fair profit margins, in line with other industries, so why do you think they are too high, or are you against all corporations?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 9:36:31 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 2071
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
The difference being that an inefficient corporation is a shortlived one. Ohhhh, not necessarily. There are some very badly managed corporations out there that just keep the money and business rolling right in. My hubby happens to work for just one of many. Just because a corporation manages to post profits year after year does NOT mean they are run efficiently or well. In fact, quite the contrary in many instances.
I continue to find it ironic that some of the most boisterous supporters of social Darwinism don't believe in regular Darwinism. I don't know why, that just amuses me.
explain to me how a corporation that is as inefficient as you claim can stay in business. Businesses must make profit or they can not remain in business PERIOD. Now let's compare that to federal programs, the governement can take money from people and has an enormous budget yet runs a deficit and carries a debt load of $12,000,000,000,000. There is not a single company in the world that could run deficits for as long or as deep as the federal government does and remain in business. I don't have to talk theoretical I can look at the numbers, the federal government is so inefficient that it has to carry a crippling debt load just to continue business, that is not a business model that works for long in the corporate world.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 9:46:10 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3547
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
The difference being that an inefficient corporation is a shortlived one. Ohhhh, not necessarily. There are some very badly managed corporations out there that just keep the money and business rolling right in. My hubby happens to work for just one of many. Just because a corporation manages to post profits year after year does NOT mean they are run efficiently or well. In fact, quite the contrary in many instances.
I continue to find it ironic that some of the most boisterous supporters of social Darwinism don't believe in regular Darwinism. I don't know why, that just amuses me.
explain to me how a corporation that is as inefficient as you claim can stay in business. Businesses must make profit or they can not remain in business PERIOD.
Making a profit doesn't mean you're efficient. It just means that you take in more money than you spend. My employer is terribly inefficient, but we make enough money to keep the doors open.
quote:
Now let's compare that to federal programs, the governement can take money from people and has an enormous budget yet runs a deficit and carries a debt load of $12,000,000,000,000. There is not a single company in the world that could run deficits for as long or as deep as the federal government does and remain in business. I don't have to talk theoretical I can look at the numbers, the federal government is so inefficient that it has to carry a crippling debt load just to continue business, that is not a business model that works for long in the corporate world.
If your goal is not to earn a profit, being in debt doesn't mean that you're inefficient, it just means you're taking on too much stuff for the amount of money you're bringing in.
Even if your goal is to make a profit, being in debt doesn't necessarily mean that you're inefficient; it could mean that you have a bad business plan. I can run a fully automated factory that runs on self-generated solar & wind power w/ a supply chain that's optimized out the wazoo, but if there's no market for my product, I'll go out of business.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 9:52:53 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 2071
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Making a profit doesn't mean you're efficient. It just means that you take in more money than you spend. My employer is terribly inefficient, but we make enough money to keep the doors open.
making a profit means you are by far more efficient that government.
quote:
If your goal is not to earn a profit, being in debt doesn't mean that you're inefficient, it just means you're taking on too much stuff for the amount of money you're bringing in.
Even if your goal is to make a profit, being in debt doesn't necessarily mean that you're inefficient; it could mean that you have a bad business plan. I can run a fully automated factory that runs on self-generated solar & wind power w/ a supply chain that's optimized out the wazoo, but if there's no market for my product, I'll go out of business.
-Dan.
The fact is that any business wishing to remain in business could not run with the level of inefficiency that our federal government operates. No one of you has stated otherwise, you have all said that there are some businesses which are to a degree inefficient which does not show that the government is a better choice. Any company that ran with anywhere near the inefficiency of the government would not be able to last very long at all, i don't hear anyone refuting that either.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 10:07:15 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3547
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
The fact is that any business wishing to remain in business could not run with the level of inefficiency that our federal government operates. No one of you has stated otherwise, you have all said that there are some businesses which are to a degree inefficient which does not show that the government is a better choice. Any company that ran with anywhere near the inefficiency of the government would not be able to last very long at all, i don't hear anyone refuting that either.
A couple times, people have pointed out that Medicare has less operating overhead (and is thus MORE efficient) than private insurers. You, OTOH, have never given us any numbers on how inefficient the government really is. Your only "evidence" is their debt load.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 11:33:25 AM
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gcsjr
Posts: 537
Joined: 11/23/2008
Status: online
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quote:
Those seem like fair profit margins, in line with other industries, so why do you think they are too high, or are you against all corporations?
Thanks
RC
I never said they were too high or that I was against corporations. You and JJP have perpetuated the myth that insurance companies have very slim profit margins, which is simply not the case. These companies get an antitrust exemption from the government (so they can work together to set prices) and complain about how high health costs are, yet they don't seem to be having any trouble making huge amounts of money, and charging consumers at least 15% more than it costs them to deliver health care.
I would prefer that the government remove their antitrust exemption and actually force them to compete like every other corporation in the US is required to do.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 12:08:19 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
AETNA: 6.17%
CIGNA: 7.21%
United Healthcare: 7.3%
WellPoint: 7.34%
Wal-Mart: 5.87%
Dell: 4.55%
Those seem like fair profit margins, in line with other industries, so why do you think they are too high, or are you against all corporations?
So here's my perspective... (and I'm usually as capitalistic as the next red blooded American).
From what I've read it has been demonstrated that a functional "sickness fund" to pool risk and pay for healtcare can be operated on AS LITTLE as 2% - so for a first approximation, we are paying twice as much in overhead (OUR MONEY, that does not directly provide care) as others just for the benefit of being private/for profit insured.
But it gets better. I've read that the typical "loss ratio" for health insurers is 80%, which means they pay in claims 80% of what they take in - so adding profit and overhead you end up with 20% penalty or TEN TIMES more.
But wait, it gets better - there are multiple different billing systems and rules and ways for insurance companies to deny or delay paying claims so on the doctors office side there needs to be a legion of people to deal with the insurance companies, conservative guess is 2 to 4 times as many is might be used in an easier system. That cost is NOT in the insurance company books (the 20% overhead) but buried on the doctors side of the equation.
So... maybe a for profit patchwork of risk pooling companies is not the "best" way to fund healthcare. My costs have skyrocketed, at the current trend there is no way I'll be able to pay for insurance 10 years from now. So... it would be helpful if something could be done. The savings if we could get to a non-profit based pooled funding model for healthcare is a LOT more than just the 5-7% profit margin and surely worth considering.
Japan has a good model I think (non profit private insurers who compete).
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 1:59:10 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7672
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
But wait, it gets better - there are multiple different billing systems and rules and ways for insurance companies to deny or delay paying claims so on the doctors office side there needs to be a legion of people to deal with the insurance companies, conservative guess is 2 to 4 times as many is might be used in an easier system. That cost is NOT in the insurance company books (the 20% overhead) but buried on the doctors side of the equation.
Do you really think there will be less paperwork or people to deal with the government and their "Death Panels", paper work, qualifications, etc.
When you fill out your taxes this year, just think about dealing with the government to get a cat scan, or a stint put in.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 2:46:05 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Do you really think there will be less paperwork or people to deal with the government and their "Death Panels", paper work, qualifications, etc.
When you fill out your taxes this year, just think about dealing with the government to get a cat scan, or a stint put in.
Other countries do it.
Do I think the current crop of US legislators will? Highly unlikely.
I'm just saying can be done, with the proof being it IS done in other parts of the world - the argument that people must make profit to be efficient doesn't seem to hold up.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 3:44:33 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7672
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
Other countries do it.
Do I think the current crop of US legislators will? Highly unlikely.
I'm just saying can be done, with the proof being it IS done in other parts of the world - the argument that people must make profit to be efficient doesn't seem to hold up.
As a Missionary I spent a lot of time in countries that had Socialized Health Care, and it was nothing to write home about. I would not subject my family to that kind of care.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 4:44:30 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3324
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
Other countries do it.
Do I think the current crop of US legislators will? Highly unlikely.
I'm just saying can be done, with the proof being it IS done in other parts of the world - the argument that people must make profit to be efficient doesn't seem to hold up.
As a Missionary I spent a lot of time in countries that had Socialized Health Care, and it was nothing to write home about. I would not subject my family to that kind of care.
Thanks
RC
Amen! RC.
Looks like one side keeps throwing apples and the
other side keeps throwing oranges.
So, I'm gone for another couple weeks or so. LOL.
I had no health care..........well, I did. I paid for it myself.
I didn't have any "insurance." Now, Obama comes into
town and I lose my job. No jobs to be found, but that's
okay because Harry Reid says the unemployment numbers
from February is really good news. But, now I'm filing
bankruptcy. Yes sir, I'm glad the recession is over, and the
economic news is good news.
I'm still paying for a lot of my health care with the money
I scrape up. This nonsense has nothing to do with health
care. It's all about "POWER." The government (Obama)
taking control of every avenue of life. He doesn't care
about the democrat party, he doesn't care about this nation.
If he did, he would govern, but these idiots don't want to
govern, they just want to RULE. Well, you all wanted change,
you got it. The blood is on your hands.
Perhaps we can all sing Kumbaya and salute, "Sig Heil Obama."
Sorry, continue to count me out on these anti-american agendas.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 4:48:29 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3547
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
Other countries do it.
Do I think the current crop of US legislators will? Highly unlikely.
I'm just saying can be done, with the proof being it IS done in other parts of the world - the argument that people must make profit to be efficient doesn't seem to hold up.
As a Missionary I spent a lot of time in countries that had Socialized Health Care, and it was nothing to write home about. I would not subject my family to that kind of care.
Which countries?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 4:49:37 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3547
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I had no health care..........well, I did. I paid for it myself.
I didn't have any "insurance."
I'm still paying for a lot of my health care with the money
I scrape up.
With a single payer plan, you wouldn't have to pay out of pocket.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 5:00:47 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7672
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Which countries?
Mexico, Costa Rica, Peru, Spain, and many others, Why?
The health care in those countries was long lines, crowded hospitals, poorly trained health care professionals, and no where near the care that we presently have in the States.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 5:11:08 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3547
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Which countries?
Mexico, Costa Rica, Peru, Spain, and many others, Why?
Because, as I suspected, you were talking about a bunch of poorer, developing countries, which is a rather silly comparison. Practically anything in those countries is going to be substandard, private or public. A better comparison would be to public health systems in richer countries like England and Canada.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 5:17:34 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7672
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Which countries?
Mexico, Costa Rica, Peru, Spain, and many others, Why?
Because, as I suspected, you were talking about a bunch of poorer, developing countries, which is a rather silly comparison. Practically anything in those countries is going to be substandard, private or public. A better comparison would be to public health systems in richer countries like England and Canada.
In the past few years I have ministered in England a number of times, and everyone that I spoke with hated, absolutely hated their health care system. I still corespond with some of the Pastors, and they say things have only gotten worse; longer lines, 4-5 month wait for breast cancer exams, etc.
I have never heard one Brit speak kindly of their socailized health care.
I have never been to Canada.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 5:40:42 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7672
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I had no health care..........well, I did. I paid for it myself.
I didn't have any "insurance."
I'm still paying for a lot of my health care with the money
I scrape up.
With a single payer plan, you wouldn't have to pay out of pocket.
Well that's a good thing because after paying the taxes to cover single payer there will be no money in your pockets.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 5:48:20 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7672
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
A better comparison would be to public health systems in richer countries like England and Canada.
HERE is a link to a news story from today that speaks to the great health care in jolly ole' England.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 6:04:00 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3547
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I had no health care..........well, I did. I paid for it myself.
I didn't have any "insurance."
I'm still paying for a lot of my health care with the money
I scrape up.
With a single payer plan, you wouldn't have to pay out of pocket.
Well that's a good thing because after paying the taxes to cover single payer there will be no money in your pockets.
How much would a single payer plan cost, per person, in taxes? Average employer-sponsored health insurance premiums in the US are $4704/yr for an individual and $12,680 for a family.
Are your taxes really going to go up $1000/mo with single-payer?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 6:14:22 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3547
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
A better comparison would be to public health systems in richer countries like England and Canada.
HERE is a link to a news story from today that speaks to the great health care in jolly ole' England.
Thanks
RC
Seriously? You can find the same thing over here.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 7:10:54 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1234
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: ...the beautiful Sonoran Desert
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Which countries?
Mexico, Costa Rica, Peru, Spain, and many others, Why?
The health care in those countries was long lines, crowded hospitals, poorly trained health care professionals, and no where near the care that we presently have in the States.
Thanks
RC
...ironically, Americans by the thousands flock to Mexico to purchase prescription drugs and Costa Rica for medical/dental procedures which often cost one third of the price here in the states...and they are seen by doctors with American medical degrees. Of course these are private providers (...not that evil socilized medicine provided by the government).
I do believe Americans pay way too much money for drugs....we (...and our insurance companies) should not be subsidizing the rest of the world.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 7:21:02 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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BTW - while Canada and UK are the most commonly noted countries with universal care they are not the only developed countries and the model they use is not the only model.
I've read about very good care, France and Japan come to mind. Some countries have also made a transition to universal care recently too... Taiwan and Switzerland I think.
What I don't know is just how much that good care costs - something tells me it doesn't come cheap. I still think there's a lot of info out there... I get the impression our leadership thinks we are all too stupid to absorb it - so all we get is sound bytes and slogans like "no American should be without" and "death panels". Digging through the rhetoric it seems that one side is looking to make incremental changes and evaluate each step while the other side wants more dramatic changes.
Personally I'd like to see incremental changes, trial programs (maybe state or regional) and a focus on getting debt under control and jobs returning. If we continue to borrow money and no one has jobs. health care will become a secondary issue fast.
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 7:25:38 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
$12,680 for a family
Are your taxes really going to go up $1000/mo with single-payer?
Where will the money come from if they don't?
Either it gets borrowed (bad)
OR... I'm guessing my taxes will go up $3000/month and a bunch of people won't pay anything.
You think I kidding? In countries where income taxes pay the freight on this my co-workers are paying 60% marginal tax rate. I'm just sayin'
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RE: Health Care Reform - 3/6/2010 7:27:59 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
Of course these are private providers (...not that evil socilized medicine provided by the government).
I think you know this... but even if the combined risk pool for funding is a government thing you can still have private care providers.
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