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The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 3:03:00 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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I recently received a PM asking about something I had written in a closed thread. Since PMs have a 4900 character limit (and since I didn't find that out until finishing my reply) I'm posting that response here.
The person who PM'ed me asked - basically - why I believe we're living in the time of the 5th Seal. The following is my reply, based on what I learned from watching a pair of video links someone posted awhile ago.
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Hey *******, thanks for the message. Here's why I've come to believe this is true.
I won't quote all the passages involved for the sake of space and time, but will provide verses you can look up yourself.)
Look at Revelation 6. It is the chapter dealing with what we know as the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse", right? Let's look at those horses and their riders (these are metaphors for spirits...will explain in a moment).
The first horse is white, carries a bow, has a crown and rides off to battle.
The second horse is "fiery red", is given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill one another (so he's given a sword.)
The third horse is black but its rider carries no weapons. Instead, it carries scales and shouts of things for sale, as though in a marketplace.
Now we come to the fourth horse (wait for the color! It will blow your mind!!) Its rider's name is Death and Hell follows him closely. Death and hell (these spirits) are given power over 1/4th of the earth to kill people using wars, famines, plagues, and the "wild beasts of the earth."
So far I haven't told you anything you probably don't already know. But here's where it gets really interesting.
The passages I just cited (Revelation 6:1-8) are paralleled in the O.T. Look at Zechariah 6:1-8:
quote:
I looked up again and saw four chariots going out from between the two mountains. They were mountains of bronze. The first chariot had red horses. The second had black horses. The third had white horses. And the fourth had strong, spotted horses. I asked the angel who was speaking with me, “What do these horses mean, sir?”
The angel answered, “They are the four spirits of heaven. They are going out after standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole earth. 6 The chariot with the black horses is going toward the north, and the white horses are following them. The spotted ones are going toward the south.”
When these strong horses went out, they were eager to patrol the earth.
He said, “Go, patrol the earth!” And they patrolled the earth.
Then he called out to me, “Look! Those who went to the north have made my Spirit rest in the north.”
Zech 6:1-8 (GW)
So Zechariah 6 answers the question as to what these horses and their riders are: they are spirits that have gone into the earth. Spirits work their way in the world by influencing people: they can't compel anyone to act or believe anything, (we have free will) but they can impel (influence) us, especially if we are open to their leading.
So then, what are these spirits? The answer, I believe, is four major belief systems that predominate on earth since their release. If that's true, what do the colors represent? Let's take them one at a time based on the interpretation and teaching of a guy by the name of Irvin Baxter, who discovered all this and put it in a couple of videos (links coming.)
Baxter says the White Horse (spirit) represents Catholicism. Its rider is given a crown, a bow, and rides off to battle. The Pope wears the crown of the Holy Roman Empire and the Vatican, is dressed in white (all papal vehicles are white), carries a staff (which is a kind of bow) and the church "rides off" to fight against things like abortion, slavery, hunger, poverty, etc. So is Catholicism a major belief system in the world today? With more than a billion Catholic and Orthodox adherents, it's one of the biggest.
Baxter says the Red Horse (spirit) represents Communism. Look at this spirit again: its rider is given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill one another. In every country where Communism has reared its head, bloody coups and revolutions have followed: the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, Mao's Cultural Revolution in China, Pol Pot's Communist Revolution in Cambodia (which inspired the movie, "The Killing Fields") and others. All of these revolutions literally caused people within the nations where they were fought to "kill one another." Finally, every single Communist flag is or prominently displays the color red. Coincidence? Is Communism a major belief system? Is there a spirit at work behind all the madness associated with it? (Baxter's interpretation of the Red Horse is the one that sold me on this.)
The Black Horse (spirit), Baxter says, represents Capitalism. What does it mean to be "in the black?" It means you're making money (in profit) and that's all that Capitalism cares about. Capitalism can thrive in virtually any political system, so long as people are free to buy and sell, which is exactly what the Black Horse's rider is doing in Revelation 6. Does it seem that against all odds, in a place like China for instance, the spirit of Capitalism thrives? Does it seem to be a spirit-driven belief system, in some cases, that places profit ahead of people and that worships money above all else? Do you see this spirit in the world today? It's prevalent everywhere you look, and it's why I believe the Third Seal is already open.
Finally, we come to the "Pale Horse." We know it's a spirit, based on Zechariah 6 and the other three, but what is this spirit and - if already released - how is that spirit manifested in the world today?
(Ready for the mind-blowing part?)
Look at Revelation 6:7-8 again:
quote:
When the lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Go!” I looked, and there was a pale horse, and its rider's name was Death. Hell followed him. They were given power over one-fourth of the earth to kill people using wars, famines, plagues, and the wild animals on the earth.
Rev 6:7-8 (GW)
Baxter pointed out (and I agree with him) that the interpreters of virtually every version of the New Testament (except one) dropped the ball on this verse. Here is the Literal Translation with Strong's numbers:
|2532| And
|1492| I saw.
|2532| And
|2400| look,
|2462| a horse
|5515| pale green,
|2532| and
|3588| the
|9999| {one}
|2521| sitting
|1883| upon
|0846| it,
|3686| name
|0846| to him
|2288| Death,
|2532| and
|0086| Hades
|0190| followed
|3326| with
|0846| him,
|2532| and
|1325| was given
|0846| to them
|1949| authority
|0615| to kill
|1909| over
|3588| the
|5067| fourth
|3588| of the
|1093| earth
|1722| with
|4501| sword
|2532| and
|1722| with
|3042| famine
|2532| and
|1722| with
|2288| death,
|2532| and
|5259| by
|3588| the
|2342| wild animals
|3588| of the
|1093| earth.
What most translators saw as "pale" (because they apparently couldn't wrap their minds around the idea of a "green" horse) was actually "green." Note the following:
Strong's Ref. # 5515
Romanized chloros
Pronounced khlo-ros'
from the same as GSN5514; greenish, i.e. verdant, dun-colored:
KJV--green, pale.
In at least three other passages where the word "chloros: is used in the NT, it's always translated "green." It's the Greek prefix for the word "Chlorophyll", the "green pigment found in most plants, algae, and cyanobacteria. Its name is derived from the Greek χλωρός (chloros "green") and φύλλον (phyllon "leaf")."
Here's how the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible translates Revelation 6:7-8:
quote:
When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature call out, ‘Come!’* I looked and there was a pale green horse! Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed with him; they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and pestilence, and by the wild animals of the earth.
Still with me?
So now we know that "Pale" really means "Green" and we also know that the Green Horse's rider is a spirit sent into the world (Fourth Seal and Fourth of the Four Horsemen).
Is there a spirit manifest in a major belief system in the world today that meets all of the criteria indicated in Revelation 6:7-8???
YES!
Will finish this in second PM to you, as this one is getting long. (In the meantime, peruse this and ask any questions you may have.)
Later...
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And with that, I will also conclude this message in another post, as it's late and I'm getting tired. More coming. Stay tuned. 
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 2/25/2010 3:24:00 AM >
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 4:23:30 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2619
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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So.... this is all a convoluted way to condemn Roman Catholicism, Communism, Capitalism, and the "green" movement?
You realize how close that sounds to belonging in the "conspiracy" folder, right?
Do you know how many other things we could relate to the colors "white", "black", "red", and "green"? A lot.
White is a common color in almost all religious movements, including Judaism, nearly all branches of Christianity (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox), nearly all major Christian cults (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness), and nearly all major Eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_clothing_%28religious%29
Red is a color used in almost ALL flags around the world.
http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lggn0188+flags-flags-of-the-world-poster.jpg
EDIT: Lines removed since OP edited his post
You are trying to be much more specific than Scripture intends. The horses and horsemen represent conquest, war, famine, and death. All have been happening since the ascension of Christ (before, even), and will continue to happen with an eventual culmination.
Sure, Roman Catholicism perverts the Church. Sure, Communism has been responsible for great evil. Sure, Capitalism has been responsible for evil. Sure, the environmental "green" movement is likely to cause a lot of evil if it isn't stopped. But... you just don't have enough good reasoning to conclude that most of the seals of Revelation have been opened already. Presterists reason that these seals were opened and fulfilled during the fall of Jerusalem in the 60's A.D. Futurists have good reasons that these seals will be opened immediately before the return of Christ. Historicists have good reason to believe that Rec 6-18 is the entirety of church history. Idealist have reasons to claim that Revelation teaches about principles of spiritual warfare and not specific events.
Again, I am sorry, but you are going to have to do a lot more to sweeten the deal to get me to buy your... unique... version of Revelation.
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 2/25/2010 10:45:58 AM >
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 5:09:04 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
So.... this is all a convoluted way to condemn Roman Catholicism, Communism, Capitalism, and the "green" movement?
Not at all. Did you see any mention of condemnation in my post about Catholicism or even Capitalism?
And yes, Communism warrants condemnation on every count.
But all that is beside the point. The point, which you seem to have missed by a country mile, is that each of these major belief systems is the manifestation of a spirit that has gone out into the world, as is illustrated in the passage from Zechariah 6.
quote:
But then with the color "black", you conveniently shift from focusing on "color" to the symbol of scales.
LOL! What's the first thing I wrote about "black"???
quote:
What does it mean to be "in the black?" It means you're making money (in profit) and that's all that Capitalism cares about.
No avoiding the color issue, as I mentioned it right up front!
And no, I haven't even mentioned what the fourth spirit is (here). The fact that you've jumped to such rash conclusions before I've even had a chance to finish the treatise indicates your mind is already made up. If so, please refrain from posting in the thread again, at least until you've seen the rest.
Thanks.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 2/25/2010 5:31:36 AM >
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 5:27:14 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
All have been happening since the ascension of Christ (before, even), and will continue to happen with an eventual culmination.
Yet the seals in Revelation 6 are specifically opened by "the lamb that was slain", as He was the only one found worthy in heaven and earth to open them!
And who is "the Lamb that was slain???" Jesus Christ! So it appears that these seals in Revelation 6 could not have been opened at least and until Christ had been crucified and ascended to be with the Father again.
I will wrap the OP (original post) up later. I don't mind questions. Your "rant" was uncalled for, especially since I specifically stated I wasn't finished with the post.
Thanks for your patience. 
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 11:08:39 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1205
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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The coming of the Assyrian of the Leopard, Bear, Lion beast…Islam is coming!
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 11:46:09 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2619
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
So.... this is all a convoluted way to condemn Roman Catholicism, Communism, Capitalism, and the "green" movement?
Not at all. Did you see any mention of condemnation in my post about Catholicism or even Capitalism?
Associating each of these things with one of the "seals of judgment" of God isn't exactly a glowing commendation of them!
quote:
And yes, Communism warrants condemnation on every count.
Arguable. While it has been corrupted and poorly implemented by fallen humans, I can actually imagine the eternal state will be some form of Communism, with each glorified person doing and giving on behalf of others. Yes, believe it or not, the Marxist declaration of, "from each according to his ability to each according to their need" squares well with Christian teaching, though it fails in modern applications because it only works if it is voluntary, not forced.
But, we can discuss Communism in another thread if you want.
quote:
But all that is beside the point. The point, which you seem to have missed by a country mile, is that each of these major belief systems is the manifestation of a spirit that has gone out into the world, as is illustrated in the passage from Zechariah 6.
No, I didn't "miss" it. I challenged it because you haven't provided convincing evidence.
quote:
quote:
But then with the color "black", you conveniently shift from focusing on "color" to the symbol of scales.
LOL! What's the first thing I wrote about "black"???
quote:
What does it mean to be "in the black?" It means you're making money (in profit) and that's all that Capitalism cares about.
No avoiding the color issue, as I mentioned it right up front!
Well, since you have now edited your post (an hour after I posted my reply), I went ahead and removed the (now) irrelevant comments from my first reply. I don't remember what you actually had written originally and don't know what you changed in your edit, so it isn't worth pursuing. I don't know now if my comments were valid or if they were flawed, so I withdraw the comments.
quote:
And no, I haven't even mentioned what the fourth spirit is (here). The fact that you've jumped to such rash conclusions before I've even had a chance to finish the treatise indicates your mind is already made up. If so, please refrain from posting in the thread again, at least until you've seen the rest.
Thanks.
1) If my presence in your thread REALLY steams you that much, I will withdraw from it out of respect. However, you don't get to ban people from threads, that is a moderator's job. And since I have done nothing but respond to your points with valid opinion that doesn't violate any TOS, I would be surprised if that happened.
2) Your overly defensive response shows me that you aren't really keen on discussion anyway. If you have a hard time seeing other people disagree with your opinions, why are you posting on an internet discussion board?
3) If you weren't ready for your opinion to receive responses, then you need to wait to post until you can present your full opinion. Once you post something, it is fair game. We aren't all going to wait around silently with baited breath, hoping you will post part two and give us "permission" to reply.
quote:
Yet the seals in Revelation 6 are specifically opened by "the lamb that was slain", as He was the only one found worthy in heaven and earth to open them!
And who is "the Lamb that was slain???" Jesus Christ! So it appears that these seals in Revelation 6 could not have been opened at least and until Christ had been crucified and ascended to be with the Father again.
I am not denying that Jesus is the "lamb slain". I am not denying that He is the only one that can open the seals. I'm merely questioning the timing and application as you are trying to present it.
You are going to have to provide a little more evidence than you have. Allow me to paraphrase your conclusions so far:
"Well, the Pope wears a crown, dresses in white and carries a staff and a staff is kinda sorta a bow, therefore Roman Catholicism is the White Horse seal of judgment."
"Well, China and Russia have red flags and they have had Communist governments at times in their history, therefore Communism is the Red Horse seal of judgment."
"Well, modern economics refers to a profit as being "in the black", therefore Capitalism is the Black Horse seal of judgment."
Those are pretty shaky, fragile connections that don't really support the weight of your conclusions.
quote:
I will wrap the OP (original post) up later. I don't mind questions. Your "rant" was uncalled for, especially since I specifically stated I wasn't finished with the post.
I am sorry you see my response as a "rant". I'm not your enemy and harbor no animosity toward you. You are essentially "teaching" here. That means your job as the teacher is to present your teaching and be able to defend it from criticism. My responses are challenges to your teachings. That is my job as a Christian (just like it is every Christian's job) who is supposed to "test the spirits" and discern truth.
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 1:32:35 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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Now to cross the finish line with this.
So far, according to Baxter's interpretation of the seals (an interpretation to which I find myself in agreement), the spirits unleashed on the earth by the opening of the first three seals (which are not judgments in and of themselves) are manifest in the three major belief systems we see in the world today:
White: Catholicism
Red: Communism
Black: Capitalism
Which brings us to the Green Horse (spirit).
I wrote in the OP that I believed there is a spirit manifest in major world belief system today that meets all of the criteria written in Revelation 6:7-8. To recap, here is that passage again:
quote:
When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature call out, ‘Come!’* I looked and there was a pale green horse! Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed with him; they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and pestilence, and by the wild animals of the earth.
This spirit, I believe, is manifest in the major belief system we know today as Islam (Kudos to Roy for his insight!). Let's look at some facts that lend credence to this interpretation.
(At the risk of being accused of "ignoring the color issue", I'll deal with that last this time).
First of all, in the PM I received, I was asked how we could be in the 5th Seal if, "The 4th seal seal includes the killing of 1/4 of the earth by sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. Never in the history of mankind has the population of the earth been reduced by 25%."
The answer to this is quite simple and is found in the text of the passage from Revelation itself:
"...they were given authority over a fourth of the earth..."
This does not imply that such killing would occur, only that these spirits would have authority (control) over 1/4 of the earth to kill by such means noted in the passage.
So does Islam meet this condition? Yes, according to Islamic sources themselves!
The following is from the closed Islam thread:
quote:
There are roughly 195 nations in the world today (192 of them in the U.N.) 57 of these are Islamic and are represented by the Organization of the Islamic Conference. That's about 1/3 of the nations on earth.
According to Islamic sources, this translates to about 1.5 to 1.8 billion Muslims worldwide, depending on the source cited. Here is one of them:
quote:
This is a webpage to show the total Muslim population worldwide...We think that in some countries the total number of Muslims are more in percentage than shown in general sources, like in China and India. For all of those cases, Islamic Sources, news items and thought provoking articles came in great help. Our research shows that the total Muslim Population is 1.82 billion in year 2009.
If we take the total estimated population of the earth (approximately 6.8 billion) and divide that into the number of Muslims on earth (those under the control of Islam), we get about a result of 26%, easily 1/4 of the earth's population under the authority of the "Green Horse!"
Clearly, Islam meets this condition of having authority over 1/4 of the earth's population. But does that authority include the ability to kill "with sword, famine, and pestilence, and by the wild animals of the earth."
Again, the answer is yes. Look at the map of the Organization of the Islamic Conference. If you venture inside its website, you can read a list of the member nations of the OIC. Some of these are among the most impoverished nations on earth, where famine and disease kill thousands every day!
quote:
In addition to that, many Muslim countries face problems of inadequate food production due to insufficient food supplies and inefficient food distribution system...
In the global context, the negative consequence of food security is staggering. The number of people without enough food to eat on a regular basis is estimated to be more than 800 million out of a 6.4 billion world population. Over 60 per cent of the world's undernourished people live in Asia, and a quarter in Africa, whereby most are Muslim-majority countries. The latest FAO figures indicate that there are 22 countries, 16 of which are in Africa, in which the prevalence rate of malnutrition is over 35 per cent...
It is really shocking to note that the two major food famine in recent history in which millions of people dies of starvation occurred in Muslim countries.
Remember: this spirit of Death only has the authority to kill by "famine, sword, pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth." Recall that I wrote in the OP that spirits "work their way in the world by influence." Death may have the authority (permission) to kill via famine under Islam, but we have the choice as to whether we will allow this to happen. Clearly, at least in some Islamic nations, famine is -at best - a problem with which to be wrestled and - at worst - a tool of war on ethnic and religious minorities in places such as the Sudan .
Further, look at those nations where Muslims comprise a majority or near majority of the population. The result of such "Islamization" is civil war as seen in places like East Timor (Indonesia), Darfur (The Sudan), and Afghanistan (under the Taliban) to name a few. (In the case of the latter, the excesses of the Taliban led it to execute even moderate Muslims for perceived violations of Sharia Law, as has also been the case in Iran under the iron boot of the Ayahtollahs!)
Wherever death by famine and sword occur, pestilence (disease) is sure to follow. Is it any wonder that wherever this spirit of Death goes, Hell follows? Hell on earth is the only life many people living under Islamic regimes currently know! (For more information on this, consult the following links:)
http://www.persecution.com
http://incommunion.org/?p=140
http://www.opendoorsusa.org
http://www.jihadwatch.org
Clearly, Islam meets the conditions necessary to kill "by famine, sword and pestilence."
But what about the wild beasts of the earth? For that, lets look at this idiomatic phrase and see if it occurs in any such form anywhere else in Revelation.
quote:
I saw another beast come from the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb. It talked like a serpent.
Rev 13:11 (GW)
This "beast of the earth" is a vision of a man: the false prophet, who performs miraculous signs in order to cause people to worship the first beast. "Of the earth" is an idiom - in this case - referring to a man. In Genesis, we see the basis for this idiom:
quote:
Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being. Gen 2:7 (GW)
So "wild beasts of the earth" is an idiomatic way of describing "wild, bestial men" or "men who behave like beasts!
Is there any scriptural evidence that such men were ever prophesied in the Bible other than Revelation 6 and 13?
Yes. Look at Genesis again:
quote:
Then the Messenger of the Lord said to her (Hagar, Sarai's slave by whom Abraham would also bear a son),
“You are pregnant, and you will give birth to a son. You will name him Ishmael [God Hears], because the Lord has heard your cry of distress. He will be as free and wild as an untamed donkey. He will fight with everyone, and everyone will fight with him. He will have conflicts with all his relatives.”
Gen 16:11-12 (GW)
Thus the seed of Ishmael, namely the Arab tribes which produced Islam, are compared not only to wild animals, but are prophesied to be in a continual state of war with everyone, including their neighbors.
When looking at the world since the birth of Islam, is there any spirit manifested in a major belief system that controls 1/4 of the earth's population with the authority (by virtue of its control) to kill with famine, sword, disease and savage, bestial men: those who use suicide bombings and civilian airliners to spread terror and war throughout the earth?
Is there any other race known to man that best fulfills the prophecy of Ishmael in Genesis 16 given what we see as the fruit of Islam, both since its appearance on the world stage and in its current state?
Finally, green is the symbolic color of Islam:
quote:
Significance of the color green in Islam
Green is the symbolic color of Islam. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH, peace be upon him) wore a green turban, and green is believed to have been his favorite color. Green was also the color of the banners used on the battlefield and the color of the first Islamic flag.
The Quran and the Hadith, the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, describe Paradise as filled with green: the people of Paradise "will wear green garments of fine silk [The Noble Quran, 18:31]."
Islam also considers green significant because it is the color of nature. Therefore, green is popularly used in the flags of Muslim nations, as well as in art and architecture. Mosques are frequently decorated with green tiles.
In conclusion then, we now have a picture of the Four Horsemen of the Four Seals:
We know they are spirits released to "patrol the earth" (Zechariah 6).
We know each is represented by a specific color. (Zechariah 6, Revelation 6)
We know each is released by "the lamb that was slain." (Revelation 6).
What may be surmised from these facts is that these spirits are manifested in four major belief systems that have predominated on earth since the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.
We may surmise that if these are - indeed - predominant belief systems, we can look at the fruit that each of these belief systems has produced, and see if they line up with the attributes of the Four Horsemen in Revelation 6.
Finally, we may surmise that if these major belief systems, indeed, match the attributes accorded them in Revelation 6, we are living during a time when - in fact - all four seals have been opened. If so, we are currently living during the time of the Fifth Seal.
More on that in next post.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 2/27/2010 2:47:33 AM >
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 1:34:17 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't remember what you actually had written originally and don't know what you changed in your edit
I edited that post for spelling and grammar. The content was untouched.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 1:38:44 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Associating each of these things with one of the "seals of judgment" of God isn't exactly a glowing commendation of them!
The seals are not judgments, something you would have seen had you waited to the end. Yet another "rash conclusion" you reached before I had presented the entire case.
You're the one who has responded both reflexively and defensively to my original post, as illustrated by the fact that you couldn't wait til I had finished with my arguments until you jumped in with both feet and started impugning me and my motives.
quote:
My responses are challenges to your teachings.
Perhaps, in the future, a little more "looking" and a little less "leaping" would be in order.
Thanks again for your patience and understanding.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 3:27:50 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 80
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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I listened to Irvin Baxtor ever since he was on the air in 1998 for the first time. I stopped listening about three years ago when I read one of Ellis H. Skolfield's books, The False Prophet. Ellis completely disproves Irvin Baxtor's prophetic interpretation. However, Irvin Baxtor is correct about one thing: the Four Horsemen. At least I got something of use out of listening to Irvin Baxtor for nearly a decade.
I walked up to Irvin Baxtor one day at his radio show and talked to him about prophecy. In front of his co-host and staff, I proved that he was incorrect, and did so in a very respectful manner and gave him Skolfield's book Islam and the End Times. When I told him Ellis's interpretation of many of the numerical prophecies, he basically said two things:
1. I tried to make the dates work like that a few years back, but I just couldn't make it work.
and
2. Any prophecy teacher can manipulate the dates to make them fit his interpretation.
I told him I checked out all of the dates and they are the most agreed-upon dates by the majority of historians and scholars worldwide. None of this phased him. I disproved him in front of his own staff and he was too prideful to admit it and to look into it even though I handed him a 136 page book with all the information in it for the prophecies. He said he probably would not get time to read it, but he would try. Some of those people that heard me tell him those prophecies no longer work for him, including his co-host at the time. That should tell you something about Irvin Baxtor.
I also can prove that the tongues he speaks is not what "tongues" is in the Bible, nor is his use of it the Biblical use for tongues. Irvin Baxtor is a bit too prideful for his own good and profits off of God. I don't care much for that, to be honest. At least Ellis Skolfield puts his books out on the internet to be read and printed out for free as soon as someone can get them scanned in and published on the net. He's not in it for the money. Irving Baxtor has staked his entire livelyhood on it. He no longer preaches. He strictly does his ministry now as of a few years back. He means well, but he doesn't understand just how much his pride has twisted him. He's a good guy, though, as far as I can tell. He really does try to do what he thinks is correct.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/25/2010 4:53:36 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2619
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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Ok, Stormcrow. I had a really witty, scathing response typed up. However, it didn't square with my signature line, so I deleted it.
I disagree with most of what you wrote in addressing me, but instead of picking apart every line, let me just say: I am sorry for my part in creating any sort of bad tone.
Now, allow me ask you some questions:
First, Is it fair to summarize that you believe the seven seals are seven eras or periods of time? If that isn't a correct summary, can you plainly answer the question, "What are the seven seals?"
Second, is the order of the seals important? If so, then why did world history happen in the wrong order? Capitalism has been around in some form or another since ancient times, long before the Catholic Church. Even if you disagree with that, capitalism still pre-dates Communism. The Dutch East India Company established the Amsterdam Stock Exchange (the world's first stock exchange) in 1602, well before Lenin brought Communism off of the page and in to practice on a national level in 1917.
You also have a problem with the order of the seals with regards to Islam. Islam (your Green Horse) was established around 632, and experienced a long "Golden Age" from the 8th century A.D. well into the 13th Century A.D.
So, if your teaching is true (white=catholic, red=communism, black=capitalism, green=Islam), then the order of the Horsemen in Revelation should have been different. Either Black, White, Green, Red or White, Green, Black, Red.
If the order of the seals and the Horsemen matter, then your teaching is false because it contradicts the order of the seals and Horsemen as presented in Scripture. In world history, the era of Communism never comes before the era of Capitalism or the era of Islam. In world history, Islam has more of a history of prosperity and advancement (science, math, literature, agriculture, economics, philosophy, etc) than it does a history of famine and pestilence.
If the order of the seals and Horsemen is NOT important, the rather heavy burden of proof is on you to explain why God showed them to John in a specific order if that order doesn't matter.
Also, there is no reason to redefine the "wild beasts of the earth" in Rev 6:8 to mean "men". Nothing in the passage or grammar or sentence structure suggests the need to change the plain meaning that "wild beasts" means "wild beasts". Remember, God has often used wild animals as part of His judgments against man. The Horsemen of Rev 6 should remind the student of Scripture of:
Lev 26:22, " And I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock and make you few in number, so that your roads shall be deserted",
Deut 32:24, " they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust,"
Ezekiel 14:21, "For thus says the Lord GOD: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four disastrous acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild beasts, and pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast!"
Shoot, famine, war, and wild animals are even mentioned together in Job 5:19-23, "19 He will deliver you from six troubles; in seven no evil shall touch you. 20 In famine he will redeem you from death, and in war from the power of the sword. 21 You shall be hidden from the lash of the tongue, and shall not fear destruction when it comes. 22 At destruction and famine you shall laugh, and shall not fear the beasts of the earth. 23 For you shall be in league with the stones of the field, and the beasts of the field shall be at peace with you."
So what it looks like to me is that you are trying to take Scripture out of context to prop up your theory of the Green/Pale Horse representing Islam, rather than letting Scripture have its plain meaning that "wild beasts" means "wild beasts". If this is not what you are doing, then what reason do you have for preferring a convoluted interpretation of "wild beasts" to mean "men" instead of the simple interpretation?
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/26/2010 12:14:45 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
First, Is it fair to summarize that you believe the seven seals are seven eras or periods of time?
No. There's nothing about them that indicates they can't operate concurrently, at least as far as the first 5 seals are concerned.
quote:
If that isn't a correct summary, can you plainly answer the question, "What are the seven seals?
The first 5 seals (I was going to explain my belief about this in another post) represent what Christ called "the beginning of sorrows."
quote:
Jesus answered them, “Be careful not to let anyone deceive you. Many will come using my name. They will say, ‘I am the Messiah,' and they will deceive many people.
“You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Don't be alarmed! These things must happen, but they don't mean that the end has come. Nation will fight against nation and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All of these are only the beginning pains {of the end}.
“Then they will hand you over to those who will torture and kill you. All nations will hate you because you are committed to me. Then many will lose faith. They will betray and hate each other. Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. And because there will be more and more lawlessness, most people's love will grow cold." Matt 24:4-12
The events and conditions Jesus describes in the early passages of Matthew 24 fit with the events and conditions that exist when the first 5 seals are opened, right down to the martyrdom of the saints (5th Seal).
quote:
Second, is the order of the seals important?
The Seals could have been opened within moments of each other. If "the Lamb that was slain" opened them all within 5 seconds, 5 minutes, or 5 years, would the order matter?
The larger point is that we know the opening of the first four seals represents the release of spirits on the earth. The Bible doesn't say when this happens specifically, only that these spirits were released by Christ, "a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world..." 1 Peter 1:19-20 (KJV).
Based on the passage from 1 Peter, these spirits could have been released during Zechariah's time (Zechariah 6). Again, though, timing or order isn't really the point until we get to the 6th seal. Spirits work by influence, not compulsion. While they may have been on the earth a very long time, it may be that men have responded to their influence at different times or not at all until recently.
Simply releasing the spirits doesn't necessarily mean that we will be immediately influenced to do their bidding. We remain creatures who possess free will and they cannot force us to go against that.
Therefore, while they all may have been released in antiquity, or after Christ ascended to be with the father is immaterial to this discussion: how have these spirits been made manifest in the lives and works of men and what fruit have they produced? Christ didn't establish any particular order for the events and conditions he spoke of in Matthew 24:4-12. Therefore, I don't think it's critical to a discussion of the operation of these spirits in the world, either.
quote:
Also, there is no reason to redefine the "wild beasts of the earth" in Rev 6:8 to mean "men". Nothing in the passage or grammar or sentence structure suggests the need to change the plain meaning that "wild beasts" means "wild beasts".
And yet we are talking about a prophetic vision here. By your logic, should we take the passage in Revelation 13 that describes "another beast rising out of the earth" to mean a literal beast, like a bull or bear?
And by your appeal to a "plain meaning" of the text, does that mean that Job (in the passage you cited) was literally, "in league with the stones of the field?"
quote:
If this is not what you are doing, then what reason do you have for preferring a convoluted interpretation of "wild beasts" to mean "men" instead of the simple interpretation?
Obviously, this is not the only evidence offered to support the interpretation, nor is it the clearest. However, given all the other evidence offered (and there is more when I post about the 5th Seal), then certainly - when taken in context with God's promise to Hagar about Ishmael - this fits consistently with everything else we see about Islam.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/26/2010 12:20:31 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Ok, Stormcrow. I had a really witty, scathing response typed up. However, it didn't square with my signature line, so I deleted it.
That's why I don't have a signature line: I'm not bound to the standards it imposes on me.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 8:28:10 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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Regarding the 5th Seal:
quote:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. Rev. 6:9-11, NIV
As stated earlier, I believe we are living in the time of this seal (5th Seal) because the first four have already been opened, and the spirits contained within them have been released.
If these spirits are manifest in the four major belief systems that are predominant in the world today, we can look at the fruit these belief systems have and are producing and see if they match the attributes assigned to them in John's vision.
If the White spirit is Catholicism, do we see the Catholic Church doing battle? The answer is yes both in history and in ideology; where, historically, the church fought wars against protestants and heretics and the incursion of Islam into Europe. We see the Catholic Church fighting on the battlefield of ideology today against abortion, poverty, and to preserve the family and traditional morality.
If the Red spirit is Communism, do we see it wielding a large sword to take peace from the earth and causing people to kill one another? The answer is an unequivocal yes: the 20th century will go down as the bloodiest century in human history to date, with Communist revolutions killing more than 100 million people in bloody fratricide.
If the Black spirit is Capitalism, do we see people worldwide fixated on commerce and trade? Again, all one has to do is look at any cable news show to see how business is reported. Business (commerce and trade) even has its own cable channels: CNBC, Fox Buisness Channel, Bloomberg TV, among others. The spirit of commerce and trade is very much alive and well everywhere you look!
If the Green spirit is Islam, do we see 1/4 of the earth's population under its control? Do we see starvation, genocide, disease and savage men perpetrating heinous acts of barbarity against other human beings? Does Hell itself seem to follow Islam wherever it goes? In all of these, I believe the answer is unequivocally yes!
So then we come to the 5th Seal and are introduced - I believe - to the saints who have come out of the tribulation created by the manifestations of the spirits of the first four seals. And who are these saints? Look again:
"...the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained."
And what is this testimony?
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
The souls under the altar are those martyred for the testimony of Jesus Christ. The first Christian martyr was Stephen, stoned to death while an approving Saul of Tarsus (later to be known as Paul) looked on and held the coats of those throwing the stones.
Since then, an untold number of Christians and Messianic Jews have died, and continue to die, with the confession of Jesus Christ as Lord on their lips.
So when you look at the totally of what's being presented in the first 5 seals of Revelation 6, you see a pattern begin to emerge that we can identify in at least one other significant prophetic passage in the New testament. Again, if we are in the 5th Seal, look at what's happening:
War, death, famine, plagues, fear, worry, falling away from the faith, pursuing false prophets and false religions, people seeking money rather than God (idolatry). Where have we seen these things mentioned before?
quote:
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
All these are the beginning of birth pains.
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:3-13.
Jesus knew all these things would happen because He is "the Lamb that was slain" who opened the seals. I can't presume to speak for God on this, but recall I've mentioned several times that spirits don't compel, they impel: we are the ones who are ultimately responsible for manifesting a spirit's influence on us, whether for good (the Holy Spirit) or evil (Satan and his minions).
I believe the first five seals are open now (and have been since at least Christ's ascension) to try our faith and test our resolve.
The tribulation we face in the world is intended to keep us focused on Christ and to do His will, the same way Peter was able to walk on water with the Lord as long as he kept his eyes focused on Christ. If we focus on the fruit these other spirits are producing, we'll fail just as Peter did when he turned his attention to the storm around him.
Finally, as to my assertion that these seals are not judgments, look at Revelation 6:11 again:
"How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Right in this passage we see God Himself saying that judgment is being withheld until, "the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."
In other words, when the last Christian (or Messianic Jewish) martyr is killed for his or her testimony of Christ, God is going to shout, "Enough!" with a shout that will shake the heavens and earth. This is why Christ said of His return, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36) because only the father knows when this last martyr will be killed.
When that happens, the 6th Seal is opened:
quote:
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" Revelation 6:12-17
Compare that to this:
quote:
"Immediately after the distress of those days" [the "great tribulation" of the first 5 seals]`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
And compare these passages with this one:
quote:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.
The 6th Seal represents the return of Christ with the trump of the archangel to rescue His body from a savage and sinful world, an event for which no one knows the day or the hour in which it will come.
Then the 7th Seal is opened and the 144,000 faithful remnant of Israel are sealed with the mark of God on their foreheads. After that, the church (having been "raptured"), is seen in heaven (Revelation 7.)
Then the trumpet judgments begin ushering in "The Day of the Lord" also known as "The Time of Jacob's Trouble."
In short, the first 5 Seals represent - I believe - the "great tribulation" we have been living in since Christ ascended, beginning with the stoning of Stephen. However, as I hope I've shown, this is not the same as "The Day of the Lord", which is the time specifically reserved for God to pour out His wrath (judgment) on the earth while saving Israel as He has promised.
If you want more proof of the martyrdom of Christians during this time, please refer to the links I posted here:
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=4767643
Peace. Out.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 2/27/2010 8:39:54 AM >
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 10:40:35 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1205
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
In short, the first 5 Seals represent - I believe - the "great tribulation" we have been living in since Christ ascended, beginning with the stoning of Stephen. However, as I hope I've shown, this is not the same as "The Day of the Lord", which is the time specifically reserved for God to pour out His wrath (judgment) on the earth while saving Israel as He has promised.
Stromcrow...I'm starting to lean in this direction.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 3:52:45 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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Bob...
Thank you. As I said in previous posts, I'm not dogmatic about this, only that it all makes more sense to me when viewed this way. 
For years I wrestled with trying to fit the vision of the seals into the Olivet Discourse because I believed - as many Protestant denominations teach - that the seals were part of God's judgment we knew as, "The Great Tribulation." Yet when viewed in this manner, the 6th Seal ends up looking like a mid or post-trib rapture, and never really fits with 1 Thessalonians 4, which ends up looking like an argument for a pre-trib rapture.
As you know, arguments between pre, mid and post-tribbers can get heated, to say the least, as each claims a piece of these different passages (among others) to try to prove their point!  (As a "pre-tribber, I used to engage in a lot of these discussions myself, but was never really entirely comfortable living with a full-on pre-trib position, because not all the pieces fit so neatly together. But then, they didn't fit so neatly together looking at the other positions, either.)
I think it's for this reason that many people simply ignore Revelation (and any prophetic passage in the New Testament) because they have been shrouded in such mystery and controversy over the years. It's easier simply to ignore them than fight over them.
Yet John wrote in Revelation, ""Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book." I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!" Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
We "seal up the book" when we refuse to read it because it's too hard to understand or too "controversial", and yet we are supposed to be blessed by it!
When the first 5 seals are taken as the "beginning of sorrows", only then - I believe - can we begin to interpret Revelation as Christ intended it to be read, and then we begin to see all these other NT prophecies begin to harmonize nicely with it.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents. As always, another's mileage may vary.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 4:24:54 PM
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vincentwansink
Posts: 6
Joined: 2/11/2010
Status: offline
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I like this line of reasoning because it does allow for a pre-trib rapture as well as a 6th seal rapture. With your explanation those two no longer clash.
However, there are a couple of things I am still unsure about. In Matthew 24, when Jesus talked about the distress of those days, he said in verse 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation' then blah blah blah..." And not until verse 29 does he say "Immediately after the distress of those days...".
So assuming that Jesus spoke of the events in chronological order, the abomination that causes desolation has to happen first, because it is after the distress of those days that the sun will be darkened and the sign of the Son of Man will appear.
Can we honestly say that Jesus told us about these events out of order?
Secondly, after the opening of the sixth seal, the 144,000 are sealed with the mark of God, but they are sealed for only 3.5 years. I believe these are the last 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week, which means they are sealed at the mid-point of the week. If that is so, and we are raptured at the beginning of the week, then where did the other 3.5 years ago?
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 4:41:28 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shabbat shalom, vincentwansink!
quote:
ORIGINAL: vincentwansink
I like this line of reasoning because it does allow for a pre-trib rapture as well as a 6th seal rapture. With your explanation those two no longer clash.
However, there are a couple of things I am still unsure about. In Matthew 24, when Jesus talked about the distress of those days, he said in verse 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation' then blah blah blah..." And not until verse 29 does he say "Immediately after the distress of those days...".
So assuming that Jesus spoke of the events in chronological order, the abomination that causes desolation has to happen first, because it is after the distress of those days that the sun will be darkened and the sign of the Son of Man will appear.
Can we honestly say that Jesus told us about these events out of order?
Secondly, after the opening of the sixth seal, the 144,000 are sealed with the mark of God, but they are sealed for only 3.5 years. I believe these are the last 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week, which means they are sealed at the mid-point of the week. If that is so, and we are raptured at the beginning of the week, then where did the other 3.5 years ago?
WELL SAID!!! Where did they go? I believe they were already fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` during His FIRST ADVENT! Then, I don't need an additional 3.5 years in Revelation! "Pretrib" = "Pre-wrath" = "Midtrib!"
We're not raptured at the "beginning of the week," but perhaps at the beginning of what's LEFT of the week?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 4:42:38 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
However, there are a couple of things I am still unsure about. In Matthew 24, when Jesus talked about the distress of those days, he said in verse 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation' then blah blah blah..." And not until verse 29 does he say "Immediately after the distress of those days...".
Hi! Assuming for a minute that the first 4 seals were opened after Christ ascended, is there any event in history where Israel is desolated after His crucifixion but before His return?
Roy?????
In 66 AD, the first Jewish/Roman War began, as Jews rebelled against Roman rule and occupation of Judea. During this time, Jerusalem was besieged on all sides by legions of Roman soldiers. The siege lasted about 3.5 years. During the siege, the Roman general who began the siege returned to Rome to assume the title of emperor, and left his son, Titus Flavius (the prince spoken of in Daniel 9) to finish the job.
In 70 AD, Roman soldiers breached the walls of Jerusalem and entered the city "like a flood", tearing it and the Temple down leaving virtually no stone standing. The "desolation" of Israel was completed in 73 AD with the fall of the Jewish resistance at Herod's fortress Masada.
Thus, during a 7-year span, Jerusalem was completely destroyed and Israel was left "desolate" precisely because the Jews had grown tired of waiting for their "redeemer", not realizing that He was in their midst less than a generation before.
You can read all of this on Wikipedia doing a search for the "first Jewish Roman War."
So the desolation fits within the first 5 seals.
quote:
Secondly, after the opening of the sixth seal, the 144,000 are sealed with the mark of God, but they are sealed for only 3.5 years. I believe these are the last 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week, which means they are sealed at the mid-point of the week. If that is so, and we are raptured at the beginning of the week, then where did the other 3.5 years ago?
Depending on whom you read here (Roy?!?!?!? ) we may be - in fact - awaiting only the fulfillment of these last 3.5 years. But I'll look into this more closely and see what else I can find.
Thanks for the reply!
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 2/27/2010 5:26:36 PM >
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 4:47:53 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Stormcrow.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Bob...
Thank you. As I said in previous posts, I'm not dogmatic about this, only that it all makes more sense to me when viewed this way.
For years I wrestled with trying to fit the vision of the seals into the Olivet Discourse because I believed - as many Protestant denominations teach - that the seals were part of God's judgment we knew as, "The Great Tribulation." Yet when viewed in this manner, the 6th Seal ends up looking like a mid or post-trib rapture, and never really fits with 1 Thessalonians 4, which ends up looking like an argument for a pre-trib rapture.
As you know, arguments between pre, mid and post-tribbers can get heated, to say the least, as each claims a piece of these different passages (among others) to try to prove their point! (As a "pre-tribber, I used to engage in a lot of these discussions myself, but was never really entirely comfortable living with a full-on pre-trib position, because not all the pieces fit so neatly together. But then, they didn't fit so neatly together looking at the other positions, either.)
I think it's for this reason that many people simply ignore Revelation (and any prophetic passage in the New Testament) because they have been shrouded in such mystery and controversy over the years. It's easier simply to ignore them than fight over them.
Yet John wrote in Revelation, ""Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book." I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!" Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
We "seal up the book" when we refuse to read it because it's too hard to understand or too "controversial", and yet we are supposed to be blessed by it!
When the first 5 seals are taken as the "beginning of sorrows", only then - I believe - can we begin to interpret Revelation as Christ intended it to be read, and then we begin to see all these other NT prophecies begin to harmonize nicely with it.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents. As always, another's mileage may vary.
I'm with Bob. I, too, am starting to lean this way. I have a bit of trouble with the "capitalism" part; maybe it should be the GREED associated with capitalism? Otherwise, it does make better sense than the other interpretations I've heard for the four horsemen.
In the love of the Messiah,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 5:09:02 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
I have a bit of trouble with the "capitalism" part;
That was almost the deal breaker for me. When you look at the attributes accorded to the other Horsemen, it's easy to see how these have been manifest in history (and in the present).
Yet I can't get past the scales and the fact that the Black Horse's spirit is carrying no weapons but shouts of things for sale. Perhaps instead of Capitalism, a better word would be "Commerce", or "Consumerism." (I called it "Materialism" in another post).
Whatever one chooses to call it, I don't think there's any question that the focus on commerce and trade dominates the minds of many in these last days, almost as if being driven by a spirit.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 5:59:37 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2619
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Hmm... I'm still unconvinced as to the identity of the "spirits". It appears to be awfully close to grasping at straws to assign Catholicism, Communism, Capitalism, and Islam to the roles of the Horsemen. There are plenty of other influential belief systems (or "spirits") out there, arguably equal to if not more powerful than these. Off the top of my head, Hinduism and atheism/humanism have far more "disciples" than Communism or arguably capitalism. The last census data I saw had these third and fourth behind Christianity and Islam in number of adherents.
For Pete's sake, Communism has only been around as an actual form of government for less than 100 years, and its power is already ebbing significantly into nothing. The largest battle against Communism is called "The Cold War", a relatively bloodless affair that significantly undermines the claim that Communism is the Red Horseman who brings war and takes peace "from the whole earth". Yes, people died in the name of Communism, but many many more have died under other forms of government. Of course, I suppose China and North Korea could unleash worldwide calamity if they wanted to, but as of 2010, Communism is hardly deserving as being called '"the Red Horseman". I would also hardly call Communism a "major belief system". There really aren't a lot of actual Communists. There are a lot of people who live under Communist rule, but how many of them actually endorse it? It was really only a small number of people who assumed power that could actually be called "Communists".
As for the Black Horseman, I still not keen on calling him "Capitalism". The passage in Rev 6:5-6 is about the scarcity of resources, particularly food resources. The phrase "a quart of wheat for a denarius" means that a whole day's wages (a denarius) will only buy enough food to sustain one person (a quart of wheat). Even the much lower quality "barley" will cost a day's wage. This scarcity will result in things like "oil and wine" becoming luxuries. "Oil and wine" is a reference to staples (oil was used to make bread, wine used for much cooking and purifying of water).
I guess this scenario could happen if the world economy collapsed, which could also open the door for a worldwide economy, currency, and government. However, there is just not enough good reason to call the Black Horsemen "Capitalism" as of now.
The identities of the other two Riders are equally suspect.
You still have not presented a convincing case that "beasts of the earth" isn't what it plainly means, "beasts of the earth", the same phrase used throughout the Old Testament to refer to wild animals and not "crazy men".
There is also still the big problem of prophecies happening severely out of order. This theory means both Jesus and John got the order of things wrong. Can anyone provide any examples of fulfilled prophecy that was given in a specific order but then fulfilled OUT of order? If that precedent isn't found in other prophecy, it is going to be a hard sell as to why God suddenly got things mixed up on this one.
Again, please don't get me wrong. I'm open to your theory, but it has to pass the Biblical smell test. I lean in a certain direction on matters of Eschatology, but I'm not dogmatic on anything about the end times except that 1) Jesus is coming back, 2) He will execute Final Judgment, 3) the heavens and Earth will be reformed/renewed, and 4) I'm gonna witness all of it from somewhere and end up with a glorified body doing the happy dance in God's presence for eternity. Other than those, I'm perfectly willing to have the timing and details be different than I imagine.
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"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 6:36:14 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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To All
Really I think that none or these seals have been broken or opened up. If you look closely at what is said of the 2nd Seal - it's rider was given power to take peace from the earth.
I heard it said (25-30 years ago in someones message (how true or not??) that over the past 3,500 years (it may have been (3000 - 4,000), but what was said from historical records that there have been a total of only about 40 years of accumulative time in which no wars were reported.
So in order for the 2nd Seal to come forth, there must be peace in the world. If you look at the beast of Rev 13 - All followed the beast. They said, Who can make war against him? In essence, No one. Not until this beast is revealed and peace exists can this 2nd Seal be opened.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 2/27/2010 6:37:40 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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I don't expect you to believe it. Take it for what you paid for it. I was asked to explain why I believed we are living in the 5th Seal and I did.
Also, as I noted, this view harmonizes a great deal of New Testament (and some OT) prophecy for me. If you have a better explanation as to how all these things fit together, I'd love to read it. Seriously: present a case that explains the operation and manifestations of these spirits as we have seen them both in history and the present any better than this does. I will read and consider it.
As far as addressing your critique point-by-point, I believe - having already laid out the case - that I have done so. I won't argue or belabor the points any further.
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