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Revelation question - 3/4/2010 11:23:00 PM
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mysaviorjesus
Posts: 2
Joined: 11/20/2008
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Can someone explain the timeline for the end of times? My understanding is something like this:
1. When the number of saints hit God's quota, the rapture will take place. (Imagine if we know who is the last saint to be saved. We can ask that person, hurry up and believe already... let's move it already 
So Christ return in mid air, takes all the already past away saints(saved people that died) from the ground into the air, then takes all the still alive saints living on earth into mid air. and off to heaven we all go.
2. The 7-year tribulation begins. Anti-Christ is known and brings world peace for 3.5 years, rebuilds the temple, then demand everyone to worship him or be killed.
3. At the end of the 7th year, the 7th trumpets sound, Jesus returns with the saints to Israel, takes out Satan and his followers including all the human that wants to fight with Jesus (they must have lost their minds trying to defeat the one true living God)
4. After all bow to Jesus or force to bow with broken knees and flat on their face on the ground, Jesus rule on earth for a 1000 years with the remaining 1/3 of the saved Jewish people. Satan is bound at this point?
??? At this time are there people alive around the world outside of Israel? and if they are, they still have a choice to come and worship Jesus in Israel or reject him?
??? Where are the saints that came with Jesus? Do they go back to heaven and wait, or rule the remaining people on earth with Jesus?
??? When does Satan get released temporarily?
??? After Jesus ruled for 1000 years, the final judgement comes? Opening the book of life? Sending Satan to the lake of fire and the multiple billions of people that refused to believe, to hang out with Satan in the lake of fire forever?
??? God makes the New Earth and New Heaven? God lives with all the saints forever?
Thanks in advance
_____________________________
XOVision 3.5" In-Dash DVD with Bluetooth (this radio is my grace from God)
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RE: Revelation question - 3/4/2010 11:44:33 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 825
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysaviorjesus
Can someone explain the timeline for the end of times? My understanding is something like this:
1. When the number of saints hit God's quota, the rapture will take place. (Imagine if we know who is the last saint to be saved. We can ask that person, hurry up and believe already... let's move it already
So Christ return in mid air, takes all the already past away saints(saved people that died) from the ground into the air, then takes all the still alive saints living on earth into mid air. and off to heaven we all go.
2. The 7-year tribulation begins. Anti-Christ is known and brings world peace for 3.5 years, rebuilds the temple, then demand everyone to worship him or be killed.
3. At the end of the 7th year, the 7th trumpets sound, Jesus returns with the saints to Israel, takes out Satan and his followers including all the human that wants to fight with Jesus (they must have lost their minds trying to defeat the one true living God)
4. After all bow to Jesus or force to bow with broken knees and flat on their face on the ground, Jesus rule on earth for a 1000 years with the remaining 1/3 of the saved Jewish people. Satan is bound at this point?
??? At this time are there people alive around the world outside of Israel? and if they are, they still have a choice to come and worship Jesus in Israel or reject him?
??? Where are the saints that came with Jesus? Do they go back to heaven and wait, or rule the remaining people on earth with Jesus?
??? When does Satan get released temporarily?
??? After Jesus ruled for 1000 years, the final judgement comes? Opening the book of life? Sending Satan to the lake of fire and the multiple billions of people that refused to believe, to hang out with Satan in the lake of fire forever?
??? God makes the New Earth and New Heaven? God lives with all the saints forever?
Thanks in advance
Sorry my friend but I completely reject this doctrine. It has no contextual basis what so ever.
It is sadly based on taking scriptures from all over the bible and awkwardly and incorrectly forcing them together.
It certainly appeals to the emotions and is sensational selling millions of books at the Christian bookstore however it is not what the Bible teaches.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/5/2010 12:54:50 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
When the number of saints hit God's quota, the rapture will take place. (Imagine if we know who is the last saint to be saved. We can ask that person, hurry up and believe already... let's move it already
First of all let's be clear: it's not the last person saved that usher in God's wrath, but the last Christian sacrificed for their testimony:
quote:
And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained...And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also. Revelation 6:9-11(NASB77)
quote:
The 7-year tribulation begins. Anti-Christ is known and brings world peace for 3.5 years, rebuilds the temple, then demand everyone to worship him or be killed.
Gross oversimplifications. Let's jump to your questions, as those will take less time to address. 
quote:
At this time are there people alive around the world outside of Israel? and if they are, they still have a choice to come and worship Jesus in Israel or reject him?
Yes and yes.
quote:
Revelation 20:7-8 (NASB77)
And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Not all mankind is destroyed at the Second Coming. Those that remain comprise the nations that Christ will rule during His millennial reign. And yes, I believe they will have a chance to repent during this time.
quote:
Where are the saints that came with Jesus? Do they go back to heaven and wait, or rule the remaining people on earth with Jesus?
We'll reign with Him wherever He is.
quote:
When does Satan get released temporarily?
At the end of the 1,000 years of Christ's millennial kingdom.
quote:
After Jesus ruled for 1000 years, the final judgement comes? Opening the book of life? Sending Satan to the lake of fire and the multiple billions of people that refused to believe, to hang out with Satan in the lake of fire forever?
??? God makes the New Earth and New Heaven? God lives with all the saints forever?
Yes.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/5/2010 1:17:03 AM
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Ntech
Posts: 62
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One detail I would add to the discussion is that it's Elijah the prophet that would rebuild the temple. Read the book of Malachi.
Chap 3.
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Chap 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/5/2010 9:05:46 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
Stick around, and you might get your mind blown by what's REALLY going to happen! (Errr, at least according to various posters.) LOL!
Hysterical! 
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RE: Revelation question - 3/5/2010 10:15:10 AM
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Montana Marv
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Joined: 4/12/2005
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mysaviorjesus
Your first two are right on the button.
You will get a lot of very weird answers to your questions. That is just this forum. Don't believe in 90 percent of what most people post here. Stick to your guns and what you were taught. Learn from there. Many posts may sound good with a sugar coating and a lot of supporting scripture (which is usually out of context), but they are as far as the east is to the west from the truth.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Revelation question - 3/5/2010 9:33:25 PM
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mysaviorjesus
Posts: 2
Joined: 11/20/2008
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Ta_Mosquito, you are hilarious. that was very good...
Thanks Montana Marv. Great advice.
Also thank you for all the replies. I enjoy reading them even the one that does not like this doctrine. I think, it just blows people's mind thinking that there will be more billions in hell than in heaven.
The weird thing is heaven would be even more worse of a place for those that cannot submit to God in heaven. So in this sense, hell is better for these billions that do not want to be ruled.
_____________________________
XOVision 3.5" In-Dash DVD with Bluetooth (this radio is my grace from God)
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 12:01:01 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysaviorjesus
Can someone explain the timeline for the end of times? My understanding is something like this:
1. When the number of saints hit God's quota, the rapture will take place. (Imagine if we know who is the last saint to be saved. We can ask that person, hurry up and believe already... let's move it already
So Christ return in mid air, takes all the already past away saints(saved people that died) from the ground into the air, then takes all the still alive saints living on earth into mid air. and off to heaven we all go.
2. The 7-year tribulation begins. Anti-Christ is known and brings world peace for 3.5 years, rebuilds the temple, then demand everyone to worship him or be killed.
3. At the end of the 7th year, the 7th trumpets sound, Jesus returns with the saints to Israel, takes out Satan and his followers including all the human that wants to fight with Jesus (they must have lost their minds trying to defeat the one true living God)
4. After all bow to Jesus or force to bow with broken knees and flat on their face on the ground, Jesus rule on earth for a 1000 years with the remaining 1/3 of the saved Jewish people. Satan is bound at this point?
This is generally correct. We are not told as to how soon after the Rapture the Tribulation period begins. Also the 7th trumpet judgment (mid-Tribulation) should not be confused with "the trump of God". The seventh trumpet heralds the wrath of God (the last 3.5 years), not the return of Christ which follows after.
quote:
??? At this time are there people alive around the world outside of Israel?
Since you seem to have forgotten all the judgments which will be poured out upon this earth, it would appear that other than the saved remnant of Israel, there may be few if any survivors.
quote:
and if they are, they still have a choice to come and worship Jesus in Israel or reject him?
Those who took the mark of the beast are damned, and those who did not are dead (executed). There are no further opportunities to repent.
quote:
??? Where are the saints that came with Jesus? Do they go back to heaven and wait, or rule the remaining people on earth with Jesus?
We are told that the saints will judge the world and the angels. We are also told that we will live and reign with Christ. Additional details will be revealed at the proper time.
quote:
??? When does Satan get released temporarily?
After the millenium and until the battle of Gog and Magog (Armageddon).
quote:
??? After Jesus ruled for 1000 years, the final judgement comes? Opening the book of life? Sending Satan to the lake of fire and the multiple billions of people that refused to believe, to hang out with Satan in the lake of fire forever?
That is correct. Not just the book of life but "the books" recording the works of all who will be judged.
quote:
??? God makes the New Earth and New Heaven? God lives with all the saints forever?
Correct.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 12:38:14 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
What I've found in researching the scriptures is that the tribulation ENDS with the Rapture. Want proof?
No thanks.
If the Tribulation ends with the Rapture and if the Antichrist rules during the first half of the Tribulation, then there will be no need of the Rapture. All the saints will have been executed and there will be none "which are alive" to meet the Lord in the air. If you are alive after the reign of the Antichrist you are eternally damned.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 12:46:51 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
No thanks.
If the Tribulation ends with the Rapture and if the Antichrist rules during the first half of the Tribulation, then there will be no need of the Rapture. All the saints will have been executed and there will be none "which are alive" to meet the Lord in the air. If you are alive after the reign of the Antichrist you are eternally damned.
The proof for my position is in the links. You're reciting a doctrinal error that has plagued the church for at least a hundred years. Everything in the links to the other thread here is scripturally supported.
Or, you can ignore it. But don't condemn it until you've read it.
Nevermind...I cross posted the information in the links to this thread. They appear below.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/6/2010 12:55:07 AM >
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 12:49:22 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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I'm going to put the passages from the Olivet Discourse in parallel with Revelation 6 AGAIN, so hopefully people will finally begin to get what's happening here:
quote:
I watched as the lamb opened the sixth seal. A powerful earthquake struck.
The sun turned as black as sackcloth made of hair. The full moon turned as red as blood. (the sun will turn dark, the moon will not give light [Matt.24], the sun will turn dark, the moon will not give light [Mark 13], Miraculous signs will occur in the sun, moon, and stars [Luke 21].)
The stars fell from the sky to the earth like figs dropping from a fig tree when it is shaken by a strong wind. The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up. (the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the universe will be shaken. [Matt. 24], the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the universe will be shaken. [Mark 13], Indeed, the powers of the universe will be shaken. [Luke 21].)
Every mountain and island was moved from its place. (The nations of the earth will be deeply troubled and confused because of the roaring and tossing of the sea. [Luke 21].)
Then the kings of the earth, the important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and all the slaves and free people hid themselves in caves and among the rocks in the mountains.
They said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the anger of the lamb, because the frightening day of their anger has come, and who is able to endure it?”
All the people on earth will cry in agony...[Matt.24]
People will faint as they fearfully wait for what will happen to the world. [Luke 21].
Revelation 6:12-17 (GW)
So why are people crying in agony, fainting, and calling for the mountains to fall on them and hide them? The answer is provided in Matthew, Mark, and Luke:
quote:
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. All the people on earth will cry in agony when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky with power and great glory. [Matt. 24].
“Then people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory." [Mark 13].
“Then people will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [Luke 21].
The coming of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse is the SAME event as prophesied in Revelation 6 and the opening of the 6th Seal! And what's the final proof of this???
quote:
He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and from every direction under the sky, they will gather those whom God has chosen. [Matt. 24]
He will send out his angels, and from every direction under the sky, they will gather those whom God has chosen. [Mark 13].
“When these things begin to happen, stand with confidence! The time when you will be set free is near.” [Luke 21].
What is the result of this event? Look at the 6th Seal again:
quote:
Revelation 7:9-10 (GW)
After these things I saw a large crowd from every nation, tribe, people, and language. No one was able to count how many people there were. They were standing in front of the throne and the lamb. They were wearing white robes, holding palm branches in their hands, and crying out in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the lamb!”
Revelation 7:13-14 (GW)
One of the leaders asked me, “Who are these people wearing white robes, and where did they come from?” I answered him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who are coming out of the terrible suffering. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
The Greek word used for "suffering" (thlipsis) in Revelation 7 is the SAME GREEK WORD USED IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE!!!
The coming of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse is the same event mentioned here:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (GW)
The Lord will come from heaven with a command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet {call} of God. First, the dead who believed in Christ will come back to life.
Then, together with them, we who are still alive will be taken in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
See how these all fit together???
The Lord will come from heaven (the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky) He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call (the trumpet {call} of God), and from every direction under the sky (from every nation, tribe, people, and language. Rev. 7) they will gather those whom God has chosen: (the people who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. Rev. 7).
The Olivet Discourse, the 6th Seal (Rev 6 & 7) and Paul, writing to the Thessalonians and Corinthians are all describing the Rapture of the Church!
The Second Coming of Christ doesn't happen until Revelation 19! When He appears that time, He comes riding on a white horse with the armies of heaven with Him to save Israel and establish His millennial kingdom!
But this harmonization of the OD, 6th Seal, and Paul is only possible IF you're willing to view the first five seals as being open NOW! If you try to fit them into "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), you end up with all kinds of weird doctrine that is neither logical nor scriptural!
It simply can't be any plainer than that!
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 12:50:27 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
Then the kings of the earth, the important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and all the slaves and free people hid themselves in caves and among the rocks in the mountains.
They said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the anger of the lamb, because the frightening day of their anger has come, and who is able to endure it?”
The opening of the 6th Seal, Revelation 6:15-17 (GW)
Humanity is cowed by the appearance of Christ in the clouds and departure of the church. Everyone remaining on earth is afraid, confused, and dismayed.
It's into this world that the Beast arrives, promising these people peace and prosperity. By the time his reign reaches its climax, here's how we see the same people, who were cowed by the departure of the church, viewed at the return of Christ on a white horse:
quote:
I saw an angel standing in the sun. He cried out in a loud voice to all the birds flying overhead, “Come! Gather for the great banquet of God.
Eat the flesh of kings, generals, warriors, horses and their riders, and all free people and slaves, both important or insignificant people.”
I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.
The beast and the false prophet who had done miracles for the beast were captured. By these miracles the false prophet had deceived those who had the brand of the beast and worshiped its statue. Both of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
The rider on the horse killed the rest with the sword that came out of his mouth. All the birds gorged themselves on the flesh of those who had been killed.
Revelation 19:17-21 (GW)
In short, those who were terrified by the appearance of Christ on the clouds in the 6th Seal (prophesied also in the Olivet Discourse) turn to the Beast for peace and are so emboldened by him, they actually march to war against Christ in Revelation 19. They end up as carrion for the birds.
Of course, none of this makes sense if the 6th Seal is not harmonized with the Olivet Discourse and Paul's letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.
Time is short. We're living in the 5th Seal.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 12:52:43 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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As some people still seem to be stumbling over the labels given the spirits of the seals earlier in this thread, I’m going to simplify this further and present Matthew 24 in parallel with Revelation 6, starting with the First Seal using those labels customarily attached to the riders.
quote:
And I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come." And I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering, and to conquer.
In the NASB version of the bible I have, the White Horse spirit is called “False Christs.” Here’s what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse to His disciples:
quote:
And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. Matthew 24:4-5 (NASB77)
The rider of the white horse: False Christs.
quote:
And when He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come." And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
The NASB describes this rider simply as “War.”
What does Christ say of this?
quote:
"And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.” Matthew 24:6 (NASB77)
The rider of the red horse: War.
quote:
And when He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." And I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard as it were a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."
The NASB describes this rider as “Famine.”
quote:
"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Matthew 24:7-8 (NASB77)
The rider of the black horse: “Famine.”
quote:
And when He broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come." And I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
This is the only spirit for whom there is not a direct parallel with Christ’s words in Matthew 24. However Death and Hell follow naturally (and logically) as the result of the first three seals: false Christ’s, war, and famine.
quote:
And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained…
The NASB labels the 5th Seal simply as “Martyrs.” Christ predicts them in Matthew 24:
quote:
"Then they will deliver you to tribulation ("thlipsis"), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.” Matthew 24:9 (NASB77)
As I’ve written before, the Greek word for tribulation in the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:14) is “thlipsis” (Strong’s Reference #2347 if you want to look it up yourself). It’s also used in John 16:33:
quote:
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation (thlipsis), but take courage; I have overcome the world."
John, writing in Revelation 1:9, uses it to describe his situation on Patmos:
quote:
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation (thlipsis) and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Thlipsis is also used in Revelation 7:14 referring to those who have “washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.”
…"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation (thlipsis), and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Now get this: Revelation 7:14 is the last time the word tribulation (“thlipsis”) is used in Revelation, however it is used 5 times before that in Revelation, ALWAYS in passages either referring to or addressing the church! After Revelation 7:14, it is not used again.
Therefore, the tribulation ends with the rapture of the church that occurs with the opening of the 6th Seal, in which Revelation 7:14 is showing the church in heaven. After the 6th Seal, when the church is taken and the 144,000 faithful remnant of Israel is sealed, then the “Day of the Lord” is ushered in:
quote:
Wail, for the day of the Lord is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt. And they will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of them; They will writhe like a woman in labor, They will look at one another in astonishment, Their faces aflame.
Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.
Thus I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud, And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless. I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold, And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I shall make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the Lord of hosts In the day of His burning anger. Isaiah 13:6-13 (NASB77)
This is paralleled in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation 6: the opening of the 6th Seal, which is the rapture of the church. We will be spared this calamity, as we have had our own tribulation (thlipsis) for the past 2,000 years.
Is this all making its way through?
One other thing I should add about Christ's predictions of false messiahs, war, famine, and martyrdom in Matthew 24...
He spoke them in the very same order that they appear as the Seals in Revelation 6.
He opened the seals in Revelation 6 as He predicted their coming in Matthew 24. He knew what He was doing.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/6/2010 6:28:06 AM >
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 1:26:31 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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To summarize:
The tribulation (thlipsis) mentioned in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and as is mentioned in John 16:33 and the 6th Seal (brought on the earth by the opening of the first 5 Seals), is the tribulation of the church. The church's tribulation (thlipsis) ends with the Rapture, as seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 6-7 (the 6th Seal).
The rapture ushers in the "Day of the Lord", seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Rev. 6:17 and Isa. 13.
The vision of the "multitude...who washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb" standing before the throne in Revelation 7 (the 6th Seal) is the church in heaven after having been raptured. There are no more martyrs under the altar at this point in Revelation: they are standing with the multitude.
The next time martyrs are seen in Revelation is here:
...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 (NASB77)
There will be those martyred for Christ during the Beast's reign, but this is not the same group mentioned in Revelation 7:14.
Hopefully, people are starting to get the big picture here. 
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/6/2010 1:46:55 AM >
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 7:59:16 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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At the risk of being mocked for the "mind blowing" reference again, I want to show you something you've probably never seen before in the Olivet Discourse:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come." Matthew 24:14 (NASB77)
How many times have we read that word "end" and took for granted that it meant the "end" of the Great Tribulation and then compared it to Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19?
Raise your hands if this is how you view this.
We've been wrong!!!
See the word "end???" Here's what Strong's says:
Strong's Ref. # 5156
Romanized tromos
Pronounced trom'-os
from GSN5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:
KJV--+ tremble(-ing).
The preaching of the gospel has always created martyrs. Christ prophesies of martyrs in Matt. 24:9. These are the same martyrs we see under the altar in the 5th Seal (Rev. 6:9-11).
When the gospel is preached (Matt. 24:9) and the last martyr is killed for his or her testimony (Rev. 6:9-11), then the 6th Seal is opened where we see this:
And the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:15-17 (NASB77)
This is the same event in Matthew and Luke:
...and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (NASB77)
...men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Luke 21:26 (NASB77)
Men mourning, fainting, hiding in caves in abject fear asking the mountains to cover them: this is the tromos of the 6th Seal initiated when the last martyr who names Christ as Lord is slain.
See how Luke describes this: fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world. This is the anticipation of God's wrath, also known as the Day of the Lord (Isa. 13 and others) and the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7).
This is not talking about the Second Coming of Revelation 19, where we see Christ returning with the armies of heaven (US! The raptured church!) to save Israel and establish His millennial kingdom! This is the rapture: The Olivet Discourse is talking about the Rapture that ushers in God's wrath!
The rapture could happen any moment. Be ready!
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/6/2010 8:06:28 AM >
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 9:10:49 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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mysaviorjesus
You were fore warned. And you will get more bizarre responses. You do not need to respond to some of these posts. Too time consuming.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 11:08:09 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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[edited by moderator - ignoring mod instruction]
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
mysaviorjesus
You were fore warned. And you will get more bizarre responses. You do not need to respond to some of these posts. Too time consuming.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Like this bizarre one from me?? lol
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
If the Tribulation ends with the Rapture and if the Antichrist rules during the first half of the Tribulation, then there will be no need of the Rapture. All the saints will have been executed and there will be none "which are alive" to meet the Lord in the air. If you are alive after the reign of the Antichrist you are eternally damned.
Two points that I don't adhere to is the impossibility of Christians surviving 3 1/2 years of tribulation by Satan and possibly the alive part (a more detailed explanation would clear it up).
Point1 Det:4:30 says prayer will help you even during tribulation even in the latter days. In Jerusalem just moments prior the sound of the 7th trump some of the (wicked at that time) are said to stop the conduct they were doing and give glory to God. Repenting does no good after the sound of the 7th trump.
Prior to that point you would have (many) Christians alive on the earth (the ones doing things that do not have to be repented) and in the trumps alone it says that
many die from water that has been poisoned by wormword. It would quite easy for the two witnesses to extend their protection to include Christians as being part of the woman that is protected from Satan in Re:12.
Another indication that the 'Church' is on earth is that the rewards being given at the start of Re:15 are to those who resisted taking the mark, it doesn't say they needed resurrection.
There is a limit on how many people can be killed by Satan. The two trumps prior to Christ's return give the number as being 1/3 of all men. If the Church is part of the woman (144,000 are the other part) then they are given protection by God and Satan's forces go after their 'relatives'. The 1/3 that are killed could be part of the many that die in the many wars going on prior to 7th trump. At Christ's arrival He is said to destroy 2/3 of 'somebody' and 'purify' the other 1/3. Even taking away the 1/3 that die in the 6th trump that still leaves that 1/3 that Christ gather as being over 2 Billion people, that large a number would certainly cover .
Point2 - At Christ's retrurn the 2/3 that die are Satan's forces, they all die at the time of His return, at the same time He is also 'welcoming' people into His Kingdom. All of these will be 'glorified people'. It is made up of righteous people dating from Adam until the sound of the 7th trump, the whole house of Israel is there going back to Jacob and Israel and the remnant of the Nations (the 1/3) which is the Church.
The 2/3 killed are tormented in hell and all the others could be in death because judgment goes back to Adam and not all would deserve 1,000 years in hell. At the end of that time Satan is sent to the lake and then these ones appear before God. Their sins have been paid in full (same as Israel's was at the start of the 1,000)
and at Judgment Day God offers them life in the New Earth. The ones alive for the 1,000 years get to stay inside New Jerusalem and they are Priests to the ones who spent most of their time doing things that are similar to what Adam did in the Garden. To be eternal and have babies being born also means it must never 'get full'.
The detailed view is easier to understand because the story is told by just a few long passages and lots of little passages that point to the same path set out for us.
I can assure the above will be seen as being incorrect in some if not all points. lol Read all of Isa:65 and see if you can fit my post into some key verses and then read Hebrews 12 with the 'thought' that the ones being chastised are the ones who come alive only at Judgment Day. Their sins can be mentioned one last time as a warning only, that is why they are told to lift their heads up and stop their knees from trembling, if they were on their way to the lake their shaking knees would be appropriate for the time and place.
Later
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 3/6/2010 1:54:25 PM >
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 1:59:00 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11820
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 2:41:22 PM
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Ntech
Posts: 62
Joined: 5/3/2005
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Going back to the original question "does anyone have a timeline for the end times?" Well let me give you mine. It would appear that the end times consist of multiple time lines. Some are thousands of years long like the curse of Malachi. Others as short as a few days or months. Some ended thousands of years ago. Some are running now. Some have yet to run. So lets go over a few of them shall we?
The original cause of all of it? Soloman worshiping a pagan god at the behest of some of his concubines. For that caused the God of the Jews to punish him by causing his kingdom to break in two under his son Rehoboam. It became ancient Israel and Judah. And things simply got worse from there. Ancient Israel tured to pagan gods and was punished with a 390 year curse approximatly in 720 BC. Judah followed with a 40 year curse in approx 605 BC...See Ezekial 4.
Now during those 40 years Daniel supposedly received his 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9. And that is supposedly the outline of the end times.
A period of 7 weeks of years. (49 years) Followed by a period of 62 weeks (432 years) After which the temple and city was to be conquered and destroyed. Then after a period of time a new temple was to be built and the 70th week to be commsummated.
Now more timeline. What is filling the gap between the 69th and the 70th week. Turns out there is unfinished business. And the problem is this.
The Jews and the Israelites of the ancient world were struck with a very long top level Leviticus 26 curse. To understand it requires a understanding of Leviticus 26 and then a study of the book of Hosea but in a nutshell here is the verses.
Hosea 3
1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Hosea 5
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6-2 is the timeline of the curse but it doesn't make any sense until you reference it with either Psalms 90-4 or 2nd Peter 3-8.
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Those days are 1000 year periods of time. The curse on Israel is a 2000 year curse. My guess is that we are approx. 1981 years into it. Give or take a few years. And this verse out of Malachi is the reason for the curse.
Malachi 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Jesus Christ maintained that John the Baptist was Elijah the prophet. The book of Malachi outlines that the job of messiah the Jews of the day were looking for was a 2 man job. Herod wasn't supposed to kill John the Baptist. But when he did the triggered the curse.
And that basically is the curse of Malachi. A 3000 year time line that covers the end times and a thousand years after.
Other notable timelines starting backwards from the end of the days. The 40 days from the downfall of the Antichrist to the end of days. The 1290 days of the reign of the AC and the abomination of desolation. The full 7 years from the signing of the agreement of Daniel 9.
Then the next step backward. The fig tree parable and generation of Matthew 24. Is it running? I would say yes. Based on the following.
Mattherw 24 specifies that the first event of the end times is verse 24-14.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
This appears to be already fulfilled. For the simplest interpretation of the prophecy is it's finished when one person from every nation/tribe/ethnic group has had the gospel preached to them. And here is two other prophesies that back that up.
Ezekiel 37 predicts that the nation of Israel would be reborn. One was on May 15th 1948. That would be a secondary fig leaf opening.
Also consider Daniel 12-4
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Knowledge certainly has seemed to increased. My water cooled multicore computer with flat screen monitors and high speed internet access is proof of that.
So yes the generation appears to have started or was already running by May 15 1948. That means the generation is at least 61 to 62 years old. And that works nicely with the curse of Malachi ending in the 2020s.
So that should be enough timelines to fry your mind on for now.
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 6:20:12 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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To All
I should define what I mean as bizarre.
It is like having 10 individuals (Preachers, Educators, Bible Teachers or Lay or others) all giving a different account, approach or meaning to scripture relating to the End Times, and each one says there were led by the Holy Spirit. All their responses are different and some 180 degrees from one another. Whom do you believe, since all were led by the same Holy Spirit. Either only one is correct or All are incorrect.
Christians using the same or different translations of the Bible and coming up with totally different End Time scenarios. Some agree to a degree, then their approaches become different. And yet We All Believe we are 80 to 90 percent correct in what we are posting. Now this is bizarre. That's why this is a forum. An exchange of ideals and ideas.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Revelation question - 3/6/2010 9:37:24 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Mattherw 24 specifies that the first event of the end times is verse 24-14.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
This appears to be already fulfilled. For the simplest interpretation of the prophecy is it's finished when one person from every nation/tribe/ethnic group has had the gospel preached to them.
The "end" of verse 14 - as I wrote in a previous post - doesn't mean "end." The Greek word is "tromos" which means "to tremble, as in quaking with fear."
This will be fulfilled at the rapture of the church, seen in Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6, at the opening of the 6th Seal, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
The rapture of the church - when Christ is seen on the clouds to gather His church to Him there - ends the tribulation of the church (thlipsis) and ushers in the "trembling" (tromos) of the Day of the Lord.
In short, this prophecy isn't fulfilled yet. The Rapture of the Church has not occurred and the Day of the Lord hasn't begun.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/6/2010 9:53:29 PM >
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RE: Revelation question - 3/7/2010 3:43:38 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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One of the things that has often given people trouble understanding Matthew 24 in context with other prophetic passages, is that it seems to jump all over the place. Well, the reason for that is Matthew 24 describes in one small section of verses what Luke uses two different chapters to describe!
You have to view Matthew and Luke together to understand what Matthew is talking about. Here are those troublesome passages in Matthew explained by Luke:
quote:
"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak.
"But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. Matthew 24:15-22 (NASB77)
The preceding passage from Matthew has often - mistakenly - been interpreted to mean some distant time in our future when "the Antichrist" is seen in the Temple persecuting the Jews with a "tribulation" that has never been seen before and never will be again.
But how does Luke describe this same event???
quote:
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand. "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
"Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people, and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB77)
In these two passages from the Olivet Discourse, Christ is talking about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. The passage from Daniel that refers to is this:
quote:
"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off [crucified] and have nothing, and the people [Romans] of the prince [Titus Flavius, son of Vespasian, Emperor of Rome] who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary [The Temple and Jerusalem destroyed in 70 AD]. And its end will come with a flood [Jerusalem's walls were breached and Roman legions poured into the streets, killing everyone they saw]; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined [Israel was completely desolated of the Jews in 73 AD, with the fall of Masada]. Daniel 9:26 (NASB77)
Ezekiel, chapters 4 through 11, prophesy in greater detail about the siege and fall of Jerusalem at the hand of the Romans. You can read the fulfillment of these prophecies in the works of Flavius Josephus here:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/
Now, the passage in Matthew that talks about the coming of the Lord is actually paralleled in Luke 17 in much greater detail!
quote:
"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or ' There He is,' do not believe him. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. "Behold, I have told you in advance.
"If therefore they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go forth, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. " For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. " Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." Matthew 24:15-28 (NASB77)
So those surviving Jews and Christians - having seen Jerusalem and the Temple destroyed - start looking for Christ's return. He is telling them here "don't go looking for me." Luke tells the rest of the story:
quote:
And He said to the disciples, " The days shall come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. " And they will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them.
" For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. " But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
" And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it shall be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
" It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
"It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
"On that day, let not the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house go down to take them away; and likewise let not the one who is in the field turn back.
" Remember Lot's wife.
" Whoever seeks to keep his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life shall preserve it.
"I tell you, on that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken, and the other will be left.
" There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken, and the other will be left.
[" Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord? [where are these taken?]" And He said to them, " Where the body is, there also will the vultures [eagles] be gathered." Luke 17:22-37 (NASB77)
And where is His body? In the clouds waiting to meet with those He has taken in the air to be with Him! (1 Thess. 4:16-17, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13, Luke 21, 1 Corinthians 15, Rev. 6 & 7).
There it all is: the Olivet Discourse demystified and laid out in perfect harmony with every other New Testament prophecy regarding the Rapture of the Church.
Take it all for what you paid for it.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/7/2010 3:55:56 AM >
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RE: Revelation question - 3/7/2010 6:23:05 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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Put Flavius Josephus "The War of the Jews" on your must-read list if you want to understand the suffering of Jerusalem during the siege of Titus: a siege so dreadful, it was foretold at length in Ezekiel 4-11 and - in brief - in Daniel 9:26. It will break your heart.
No wonder Jesus wept over Jerusalem. He knew what was coming.
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