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[Poll]
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Can the NT exist without the OT?
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| I don't know |
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| Tell me |
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| What is the relevance? |
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| no |
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| yes |
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Total Votes : 50
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(last vote on : 5/26/2010 9:13:00 AM)
(Poll will run till: 1/1/2011 12:00:00 AM)
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Can the NT exist without the OT? - 2/22/2010 4:30:57 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
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Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT?
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 4:44:36 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
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Why do people try to separate the two? The New Testament is simply the Old Testament revealed. All the promises and types fulfilled in Christ. To answer your question directly,No. The New Testament is much clearer than the Old Testament in that we now know what those Holy men of Old wish they knew.
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2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 4:49:19 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7151
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Stand on it's own for what?
1. For mere, basic salvation? PRobably
2. For a broader, deeper, more thorough understanding of GOd and his plan then no. That is what I answered.
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L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 4:52:31 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Stand on it's own for what?
1. For mere, basic salvation? PRobably
2. For a broader, deeper, more thorough understanding of GOd and his plan then no. That is what I answered.
Textual context and more... including salvation. Say why you think that the NT might be enough on it's own for Salvation.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 5:01:59 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Why do people try to separate the two? The New Testament is simply the Old Testament revealed. All the promises and types fulfilled in Christ. To answer your question directly,No. The New Testament is much clearer than the Old Testament in that we now know what those Holy men of Old wish they knew.
So then please tell me... If the NT is... say all we need for salvation... where does one get convicted of sin? What did Paul say was the School Master that teaches us what is right and what is wrong?
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 5:05:08 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
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For Clarification:
Assume the OT had never been written. Would the NT have a leg to stand on independent of the OT?
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 6:44:22 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7151
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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Well, then I would say no it couldn't I'm assuming that means that means that the NT would be missing all the quotes from the OT.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 6:53:40 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Well, then I would say no it couldn't I'm assuming that means that means that the NT would be missing all the quotes from the OT.
Correct.
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 7:17:06 PM
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sue244
Posts: 860
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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I said no. The OT builds a lot of the foundation that the NT is then built upon.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 7:49:47 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 825
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
For Clarification:
Assume the OT had never been written. Would the NT have a leg to stand on independent of the OT?
What do you mean leg to stand on?
A huge portion of the NT is directly quoting the OT.......you have to have the OT to have the context of the NT.
Without the OT you have no context.
Also please note that the Gospels were written of events still occurring during the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant did not take effect until Jesus died.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 7:53:47 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2719
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Also please note that the Gospels were written of events still occurring during the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant did not take effect until Jesus died.
Are you saying that the gospels would be better placed in the Tanach(OT), if one were to insist on a division?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 7:54:03 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
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From: many places
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
For Clarification:
Assume the OT had never been written. Would the NT have a leg to stand on independent of the OT?
What do you mean leg to stand on?
A huge portion of the NT is directly quoting the OT.......you have to have the OT to have the context of the NT.
Without the OT you have no context.
Also please note that the Gospels were written of events still occurring during the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant did not take effect until Jesus died.
Thank you for enlightening me!(side whispers: When I started this I voted No.)
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 8:28:23 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7151
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: offline
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quote:
Also please note that the Gospels were written of events still occurring during the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant did not take effect until Jesus died.
This would assume that all Christians accept dispensationalism
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 8:31:48 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
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since nearly a quarter of the voters think that there is a leg for the NT to stand on if the OT didn't exist... would you mind explaining why you believe what you believe?
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/22/2010 10:32:27 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 933
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
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Perhaps I missed the post, but has anyone mentioned that all gospel was Tanach. Jesus, and the Apostles lived as, and followed the Laws of, OT Jewish men. not as RCC, and especially not as 'Christians.' It took some doing for Jesus to convince them He was Meshiach (Messiah).
Some of the Gospel letters written in the """First Century""" were selected to create what we now call the New Testament, some time after all of the Apostles had graduated Home.
Without the Tanach (Old Testament) there would have been any Prophecies for Jesus to fulfill, and we would have only then had a bunch of 'Crazy People,' running around shouting that one of them was Messiah. Israel had already had a number of those, before, and since Jesus. Look at History, so recent we only need first hand memory to find a number of Jones' and Koreshes, enough to make one sick.
Jesus, Apostles, Paul, John the Baptizer, anon, would not have had a chance of convincing anyone that Jesus was who He is, even with the resurrecting, and healing.
Without Tanach (OT), the NT is not much more than an 'Air Plant,' with no Roots, Nor Fruit.
Nuff Said.
In Messiah, His complete word. Arley
Edited to include the word: 'not,' behind 'would,' para 4 //as// 02-23-10
< Message edited by navyblueret -- 2/23/2010 10:30:02 AM >
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 4:52:13 AM
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everjoyful
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I think you need both, but in personal reading it's more important for us to get to grips with the new testement before the old. And then read the old to confirm the new.
I say this because I read vast portions of the Old testement before the new and saw a violent vengeful God and never felt like his child. I took much reading of the new to see where things had changed and I was ok now.
For example Romans explained why the promises made to Israel were now relevant to me also and Hebrews was such a revelation after spending so long in Moses' books.
Perhaps my answer can be explained this way.
For new christians the new testement stands alone in explaining salvation, adoption and righteousness through the cross.
For mature christians the Ot is essential in explaining the whys and proving Christ as the Christ.
But one should always balance what they read in the OT with what they read in the new. This I state because people that I know of who spend more time in the old testement than the new seem to miss the level of compassion and grace exhibited through christ and then instead represent to the world a vengeful God rather than the loving self sacrificing God that he has been shown to be in the New testement. (For instance they pick and choose punishments of the old testement....even quoting things like an eye for an eye.)
The more I read my new testement the more understanding I have of the old. The more I see a loving God and begin to understand more the things that are harder to accept in the old. (Ie the wars and slaughters and death penalties for many things.)
As an altogether answer (yes I am getting there.) would the new testement make sense without the old.....the salvation message would be the same but without knowledge of why salvation is needed and why Jesus provides it it would fall apart so my answer is No.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 9:55:37 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 825
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
For Clarification:
Assume the OT had never been written. Would the NT have a leg to stand on independent of the OT?
What do you mean leg to stand on?
A huge portion of the NT is directly quoting the OT.......you have to have the OT to have the context of the NT.
Without the OT you have no context.
Also please note that the Gospels were written of events still occurring during the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant did not take effect until Jesus died.
Thank you for enlightening me!(side whispers: When I started this I voted No.)
Are you being sarcastic here? Sometimes it is hard to tell via internet.
I hope you didn't take my post as sarcastic or condescending. I wasn't trying to be that way to you.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 9:59:19 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
quote:
Also please note that the Gospels were written of events still occurring during the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant did not take effect until Jesus died.
This would assume that all Christians accept dispensationalism
I disagree......I don't assume that.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 10:01:45 AM
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stampinlady
Posts: 3124
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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Isn't that Covenant theology???
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Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 10:18:22 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 825
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Isn't that Covenant theology???
Hi Deb! Love your profile pic! ;)
I am not sure what Covenant theology is.
All I know is that the writer of Hebrews declares that the NT started when Jesus died.
That is when it officially took effect.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 3:14:04 PM
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frankman
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AS far as salvation goes we don`t need the OT nor the full NT but only one verse and that is John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." However for an intellectual wanting to know more about God that would be like rather short changing myself. If you want to know why God loves us, why God sent His Son to die for our sins, and what is the meaning of me having eternal life, you have to read the whole story from beginning to end. God`s Word to us consists from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21 and I want to know the whole Book. This includes the OT.
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"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 4:20:06 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
For Clarification:
Assume the OT had never been written. Would the NT have a leg to stand on independent of the OT?
What do you mean leg to stand on?
A huge portion of the NT is directly quoting the OT.......you have to have the OT to have the context of the NT.
Without the OT you have no context.
Also please note that the Gospels were written of events still occurring during the Old Covenant.
The New Covenant did not take effect until Jesus died.
Thank you for enlightening me!(side whispers: When I started this I voted No.)
Are you being sarcastic here? Sometimes it is hard to tell via internet.
I hope you didn't take my post as sarcastic or condescending. I wasn't trying to be that way to you.
OK. noted. Just please be careful using the third person "you". That is what confused me...
Yes I was being sarcastic... yet I was also trying to be funny... I am told that I have a lousy sense of humor...
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 4:26:18 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
AS far as salvation goes we don`t need the OT nor the full NT but only one verse and that is John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." However for an intellectual wanting to know more about God that would be like rather short changing myself. If you want to know why God loves us, why God sent His Son to die for our sins, and what is the meaning of me having eternal life, you have to read the whole story from beginning to end. God`s Word to us consists from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21 and I want to know the whole Book. This includes the OT.
Here's my take on what you said:
G-d knew that everyone would need to know about Him but also knew that many would not accept Him.
He wrote the book so all would have no excuse not to know Him... As the prophet said "how will they know unless they are told?".
So The Bible being a book for humanity needs all it's components. O + N = ToG
Old + New = Testament of G-d
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 4:29:38 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 760
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: online
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Yes. Someone has said if he was deserted on an island and found just Paul's epistle to the Romans it would be enough any pagan he's responsible to the blood/sacrifice/obedience Christ Jesus. Even without any access to the written word all are responsible to the light shown by nature and circumstance.
_____________________________
'No man can do a great and enduring work for God who is not a man of prayer and
no man can be a man of prayer who doesn't give much time to praying.' E.M. Bounds
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 2/23/2010 5:25:59 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
Yes. Someone has said if he was deserted on an island and found just Paul's epistle to the Romans it would be enough any pagan he's responsible to the blood/sacrifice/obedience Christ Jesus. Even without any access to the written word all are responsible to the light shown by nature and circumstance.
And how many quotes from the OT are in the NT? For that matter if the OT had never existed you wouldn't have a paul to write Romans!
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